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I don't know jack about Pitons

Original Post
Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340

Well, I get the basics. It's a pin that you pound into a crack. I've clipped them, I've removed them, and followed climbers who have placed them.

There's not too much info out there on using pitons, knifeblades, and peckers though. And as I progress with my climbing, getting into mixed climbing as well as more serious rock faces that might not take cams and stoppers, I'd like to learn a bit more about them.

Anyone who uses pitons regularly can tell me maybe about some of the situations you've been in. I'm sure it's not as straight forward as I would think (or maybe it is?).

I'm going to seek out professional instruction, so I'm only fishing for discussion points. Thanks.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
Michael C wrote:more serious rock faces that might not take cams and stoppers,
nowadays we use bolts.

pins DO have and have had their place. they were the reason many aid climbs were able to go free, as they manufactured the crack for locks and clean pro.

Michael C wrote:There's not too much info out there on using pitons, knifeblades, and peckers though.
they have pretty much become a lost art/craft as its not sustainable

having said all that, i think learning the correct way to remove them is more important than how to place them.
Ryan N · · Bellingham, WA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 195

"They have pretty much become a lost art"?

There's plenty of world class routes in Yosemite that require sometimes extensive pin racks. I agree that with newer climbing hardware the need for pins in certain situations is not necessary.

For info a good way to get your feet wet is check out Freedom of the Hills. There's only a few pages on pins but it's a good start plus the book has great general information about everything.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
Ryan N wrote:There's plenty of world class routes in Yosemite that require sometimes extensive pin racks.
thats why i said 'pretty much'. the percentage of climbers doing those routes is pretty small
Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340

Where I live bolts are sort of frowned upon and really only installed as a last resort or on very popular lines to save trees. Personally, I wouldn't place a bolt unless I was putting up a new line or got permission from park services/land owners/local community for an established route that might be better off with a bolt or bolts. But that's a whole other discussion and I don't want the topic going in that direction.

Where I live, and climb, there are definitely pins in rock as fixed gear and climbers using pins on some of the rarely climbed rock routes and or mixed lines. My usage of pins will be on the rarely climbed rock routes and mixed lines.

Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

I don't use them but I know there are a few mixed routes north of me that require pins on the sketch rock sections that not really have any other options for pro.

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

I have placed quite few on f/a's and think pins still have a place. it's mostly an experience thing..find some crap rock and start.

GENERALLY you will use a slightly bigger pin than you think..A KB crack for a true KB is very thin indeed.

and bolted cracks are wrong

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669

like i said, they do have their place...

try this: rescuedynamics.ca/articles/…

or

amazon.com/Driven-Piton-Han…

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
andy-kirkpatrick.com/shop/p…

^^beat me to it^^
Colin Simon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 370

Anyone who spends time in the Canadian Rockies knows that pitons are used extensively, to the point that they are still used MORE than cams and nuts on certain routes.

The Dolomites take pitons very well too. Bringing a hammer is recommended even if you don't bring pitons, just to pound in older pins.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

I know Micheal, and one of the areas we climb in do indeed have nailing routes there, at least as described by the guidebook. Most of these probably haven't seen an ascent in many years, but bolting in that area is discouraged by the local community and technically prohibited by the parks service.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669

btw +1 for the term 'pegging'

Larry S wrote:I know Micheal, and one of the areas we climb in does indeed have nailing routes there, at least as described by the guidebook. Most of these probably haven't seen an ascent in many years, but bolting in that area is discouraged by the local community and technically prohibited by the parks service.
yeah, dont put a bolt in where you shouldnt
Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340
Darren Mabe wrote:this: rescuedynamics.ca/articles/…
Ah, thanks! Something like this is what I was looking for.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

We pull tested loads (over 100) of pitons a few years ago as part of a project on in-situ gear for the BMC, basically you beat the shit out of them!
bolt-products.com/Glue-inBo… about 2/3rds of the way down the incredibly long page of wierd stuff.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Well, don't simply beat the shit out of it. I'm sure I've placed well over 3000 pitons and an intelligently placed pin will hold better than a pin that has had the shit beat out of it any day.

Insert it 2/3 of it's length and hammer it in. If it sings a higher and higher note, it's a good pin. Stop hitting it when the note goes no higher and it goes no further into the crack.

If you are aid climbing off it, a rule I've always followed (from Back in the Day when walls were climbed with 98% hammered pitons) never hit a pin (aside from anchors) more than three times.

john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

or the old bridwell "hit it once" method from the first Nose in a Day

before cams...you remember Phoenix ..? mark ?

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

Sure do, did the second ascent of it, on hexes!

Tim Zander · · Breckenridge, CO · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 30

Mark Hudson,

In regards to the highest pitch ringing, what do you think of this report?

thebmc.co.uk/is-there-a-fut…

Myth 3: You drive a piton in until the pitch of the ringing stops rising and then stop. All the pitons tested had different pitches of ringing, angles making a lovely sound even when not in a crack. Stopping driving early, when the pitch appeared to be at its highest, gave easy to remove pitons. What was considered good turned out to be unable to even hold the initial weight of the test rig. The maximum pull-out resistance was achieved when pegs were "beaten to death"; either because we just couldn’t hit them any harder or they started to collapse. Of course one's ability to hear when the ringing stops rising could be age related anyway; beware of old men’s pitons!

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

It's H U D O N, but anyway...

If the crack is filled with sand or dirt the pin will ring and yet fall right out also. "Dropping" your hammerhead onto the pin, and if it "bouncing" off was also a sign of a good pin. I've certainly placed pins that didn't ring, and were not beaten to death, that were bomber. In my experience, more often that not, a ringing pin is a good pin. BITD, I've done hanging belays and bivy's on those pins and they certainly didn't come out easily when the time came to remove them either.

Although, I guess, I'm not talking about fixing pins for life. I'm talking about wall climbing with pins where they have to be placed quickly and them removed as quickly.

mucci · · sf ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 655

Pitoncraft is an art.

The old dads were brilliant with Blades, scary good with them. Nowadays, the beak is the new wave of thin nailing.

Practice where it does not matter, on a boulder or rock with no routes way off in the woods.

New routeing, obscure wall routes and various other aid Bobbin will get you honed.

Sometimes you beat them to death, other times just enough to hold, there is a learning cure, a very steep one at that.

Beaks are so common, I would start with those, and hand placing them is a good start to see how the mechanics work.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Mark Hudon wrote:It's H U D O N, but anyway... If the crack is filled with sand or dirt the pin will ring and yet fall right out also. "Dropping" your hammerhead onto the pin, and if it "bouncing" off was also a sign of a good pin. I've certainly placed pins that didn't ring, and were not beaten to death, that were bomber. In my experience, more often that not, a ringing pin is a good pin. BITD, I've done hanging belays and bivy's on those pins and they certainly didn't come out easily when the time came to remove them either. Although, I guess, I'm not talking about fixing pins for life. I'm talking about wall climbing with pins where they have to be placed quickly and them removed as quickly.
The piton will ring as you beat it in but that the maximum holding power is when the pitch stops rising is a bit of a myth, we could get nearly double the holding power by changing to a sledge hammer and just hammering until nothing moved any more. The pitch of the ringing has more to do with the type and material of the piton and the lightness of the hammer than any intrinsic holding power, with a 14lb sledge pitons don´t "ring" any more but for sure they go further in and are stronger.
The real problems start once you move away from chrome-moly pegs and granite and into the fairly common soft pegs and limestone which is often the combination in Europe. With the much lighter hammer or an ice tool hammer compared with a wall hammer and there really isn´t any answer other than to beat the shit out of it if you are expecting the piton to function as either protection or as a belay. Ease of removal is not going to be a consideration, either deliberate or accidental.
A hard steel piton in an ideal mechanical placement like a horizontal needs little hammering to be bomber, a soft-steel blade driven upwards under a roof wants to be hammer-welded in place to be of any real use!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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