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How Unsafe is This?

Original Post
FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45

Was gym climbing (TR) the other day with a random, new partner in a group of 3. I walk over while the other two are climbing/belaying and I notice the belayer had his GriGri clipped in upside down. Break strand going up, climber strand facing the ground. The GriGri was threaded properly, it was just clipped onto the harness upside down.

When I pointed it out, the response I got was, "It's probably not a safety issue." But that doesn't seem like the response anybody would want to hear...

I said that if it were an ATC, it would damn straight be a safety issue.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

I don't think it would be a safety issue with an ATC. (can't speak to a Gri-Gri) Although the climber's strand should be coming out of the top of the ATC, you can still give an adequate belay with it reversed.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
FourT6and2 wrote:I said that if it were an ATC, it would damn straight be a safety issue.
Why?

I understand that the brake side of the rope coming out the "bottom" of an ATC is best practice, but, why is it "damn straight a safety issue"?
Sean Hoffecker · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 10

Seems like there is a decent chance that the camming mechanism of the GriGri might be impared with it upside down, but not necessarily. However I disagree with your comment regarding an ATC (if I understand what you were trying to say). An ATC Guide threaded "upside down," meaning that the teeth are on the climber side, not the brake side, is fine. Black Diamond calls it the "low friction mode" and it's an approved way to use one. This is typically done with a light climber to allow for easy lowering. Just my two cents.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Sean Hoffecker wrote:Seems like there is a decent chance that the camming mechanism of the GriGri might be impared with it upside down, but not necessarily. However I disagree with your comment regarding an ATC (if I understand what you were trying to say). An ATC Guide threaded "upside down," meaning that the teeth are on the climber side, not the brake side, is fine. Black Diamond calls it the "low friction mode" and it's an approved way to use one. This is typically done with a light climber to allow for easy lowering. Just my two cents.
You are correct about the low-friction mode, but the OP is talking about the climber's strand of rope coming out of the bottom, regardless of which way the ATC is oriented. You are talking about a different issue with the ATC.
Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Sean Hoffecker wrote:Seems like there is a decent chance that the camming mechanism of the GriGri might be impared with it upside down, but not necessarily. However I disagree with your comment regarding an ATC (if I understand what you were trying to say). An ATC Guide threaded "upside down," meaning that the teeth are on the climber side, not the brake side, is fine. Black Diamond calls it the "low friction mode" and it's an approved way to use one. This is typically done with a light climber to allow for easy lowering. Just my two cents.
No, that's not the situation described by the OP. Its that the brake hand strand of the rope comes out the top of the ATC, and, the climber strand comes out the bottom, when clipped to the belay loop on the harness. Regardless of the orientation of the ATC (ie, teeth or no teeth on brake side).
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Brian,

Pretty funny. You and I are moments apart with two identical responses!

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711

You type faster and/or your comment had less verbiage...too funny.

Sean Hoffecker · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 10

Ah I undestand now. Wouldn't the belay loop just twist in the event of a fall, thus pulling the climber end up and the brake side down?

I am curious about the GriGri question though... I don't have mine in front of me to really play around with it.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

Grigri upside down works for left handed belayers, it works, just looks weird.

coppolillo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 70

probably not a safety issue.

you probably won't die if you pull this lever.

you probably won't die if you eat at this restaurant.

you probably won't die if you ski this slope.

seems like "probably" isn't the best bet, especially not with an inexperienced climber assessing his belay method.

just me, but i'm middle aged and have muffin top 10 months of the year. maybe i'm just not core.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
coppolillo wrote:probably not a safety issue...seems like "probably" isn't the best bet, especially not with an inexperienced climber assessing his belay method. just me, but i'm middle aged and have muffin top 10 months of the year. maybe i'm just not core.
Fine...I think it absolutely would work. For me. But, (knock on wood), I'm a fairly experienced and attentive belayer.

Like I mentioned, not best practice (ie, isn't the "best bet"). But, would still be adequate.

I think I get why its not best practice. But, why don't you think its not best practice? Middle aged muffin top non-core climber...(think I got you beat on all counts)...ha ha. That said, I do belay inside or out 2-3 times per week, week after week...for many many years...

And, I appreciate the kids learning "the right way" to do some of this climbing stuff. My two longest catches (50 and 60 feet) whilst belaying were on a hip belay and a munter hitch...so...there's more than one safe way to skin that belay cat.

Cheers!
Ian Cavanaugh · · Ketchum, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 620

As I work in a gym, I see this happen all the time. Some loads the Grigri correctly but clips it into their belay loop upside down. It does work, but twist their belay loop once the rope is weighted. There are opportunities for this to fail if the device gets caught trying to flip into a correct orientation but very unlikely. Simply inform them of the correct way to load and use the device.
As for an atc, if it was loaded correctly there is no way to clip it on upside down like a grigri. so not really sure how it could be dangerous. teeth or no teeth, doesnt matter they are all friction devices and if loaded with the rope correctly they are going to work, whether the brake rope come towards the belayer or away from them.

Ryan Palo · · Bend, oregon · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 605

Yeah, I see this sort of thing a lot. Really not an issue mechanically speaking. The device will 'right' itself when it's loaded. More importantly to me it what it says about the climber who does this. It tells me they dont pay attention to detail. I feel the same way about seeing undressed knotts. Either they didnt know the proper way or they didnt care. Either way it's cause for concern to me.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

It doesn't matter with a grigri as long as the rope for the the climber is coming out the climber side you can clip it to you any way you want.

I do it on purpose from time to time on multi pitches because i want the rope to stack on a certain side. It may be strange for someone who is right handed to belay with the left hand (would not want to do it with an atc) but have no problem with a grigri.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
FourT6and2 wrote:The GriGri was threaded properly, it was just clipped onto the harness upside down.
That´s how rope-soloists orient the Grigri and how some left-handed people use it, it´s probably safer than the "right" way.
Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

I use my ATC backwards intentionally sometimes for easier feeding. The Grigri works as long as it's threaded correctly. It's less than ideal to be upside down but it doesn't jeopardize the structural integrity of the device in any way, just more awkward to use.

FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45
Sean Hoffecker wrote:Seems like there is a decent chance that the camming mechanism of the GriGri might be impared with it upside down, but not necessarily. However I disagree with your comment regarding an ATC (if I understand what you were trying to say). An ATC Guide threaded "upside down," meaning that the teeth are on the climber side, not the brake side, is fine. Black Diamond calls it the "low friction mode" and it's an approved way to use one. This is typically done with a light climber to allow for easy lowering. Just my two cents.
No, not threaded upside down. Threaded correctly, but then the entire belay device is attached to the harness upside down. That's what happened.
DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

I believe this is the petzl recommended orientation for left handers. Hard to say without seeing their setup.

FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45
DrRockso wrote:I believe this is the petzl recommended orientation for left handers. Hard to say without seeing their setup.
Is there a photo or documentation for that? Maybe I'm not describing the situation properly.
FourT6and2 ... · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 45

Here is a video from Petzl for left-handed GriGri technique.

petzl.com/en/Sport/VIDEO---…

This is NOT what I'm talking about. If you watch the video, you'll see the break strand is still going DOWN toward the ground. And the device is not upside down. And by "upside down" I don't mean the black and blue sides reversed. I mean rotated such the the break strand is now going UP toward the belayer's head, instead of DOWN toward the ground.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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