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How to use rap rings and chains properly
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By mattm
From TX
Oct 15, 2013
Grande Grotto
slim wrote:
mattm, it's not perfect equalization just for load sake. one of the reasons i like to have the rope bearing biners fairly equalized is wear and tear on my gear. with equalized biners the contact radii are better for the biners and better for the ropes. in particular, if you climb in the desert a lot it kills your biners and beats up your rope.


I actually think the opposite is true re: 1 vs 2 rings and wear issues. 1 Ring/Biner has less friction than two and causes less wear and tear on your rope. It's not significantly less but two rings do cause more wear than one. You also get twisting issues with two rings if they are not right next to each other which means more added cost (chain and/or QLs) to extend the setup into a V-Chain if you choose to do that. Again, situationally dependent as gritty desert climbing may call for something different.

slim wrote:
also, not being able to easily set them up with standard draws and runners basically invites people to say, ah to hell with it i will just TR straight through the rings.


Someone who opts to re-thread the rings and TR on it vs having to figure out something outside of 2 even-height QDs probably would do it anyway as their level of lazy seems pretty high to begin with!

slim wrote:
sure, i could carry a PAS to make it easier, but i could also carry belay gloves, a rambo knife, a nalgene full of koolaid, and a giant sandwich on my harness. but i don't. most people just use 2 standard length runners to avoid a bunch of extra clutter.


The PAS vs Slings debate is pretty much personal tastes. In my 20+ years of climbing I've found standard slings (24" or 48in") to be a PITA to use vs a PAS. 24in are more often than not TOO SHORT to clip into and 48in are too long. Is it another piece of gear? Sure. But certain things are worth their specialization because they make up for it in efficiency.

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By Dylan B.
Oct 15, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008
White Privilege wrote:
I've worked a lot with engineers. Most are super smart, but incredibly narrow-minded and naive. They believe that everyone does or *should* think like they do. They often won't accept reality when it doesn't conform to their idea of how the world should be or how people should behave. Or, when confronted with hard data they'll accept it grudgingly but never understand it. "It made their head explode" made me laugh out loud. I've seen that.


Right. Engineers are all narrow minded egotists.

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By bearbreeder
Oct 15, 2013
slim wrote:
yeah, but you end up with the original ring still on the hanger, unless you brought a dremel or a hacksaw. a dead ring, a dying quicklink, and then trying to jam a biner in there. kind of a clusterfuck for no good reason. also, the argument for the inline setup to deal with shock loading is a moot point, as there wouldn't be much of a shock load in the horizontal setup. calling this far superior is silly. it is like comparing a factor of safety of 20 to 19.9 - again, majoring in the minors. again, it comes down to being easiest to use and easiest to maintain. totally inferior.


with "normal" chains ... or horizontal bolts with rings ... you still need to snip off the bottom links/rings anyways less someone raps off them later ...

again the REAL advantage is on multi for a fixed point belay setup ... which is what those euro bums are doing more and more ...

of course they are light years ahead of us in actual testing and publishing the findings ... rather than rely on intraweb arguements, what this guy said years ago and old wives tales

;)

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By slim
Administrator
Oct 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
bearbreeder wrote:
with "normal" chains ... or horizontal bolts with rings ... you still need to snip off the bottom links/rings anyways less someone raps off them later ... again the REAL advantage is on multi for a fixed point belay setup ... which is what those euro bums are doing more and more ... of course they are light years ahead of us in actual testing and publishing the findings ... rather than rely on intraweb arguements, what this guy said years ago and old wives tales ;)


that's why i said chains with big quick links at the bottom ;)

also, the fixed point euro belay method blows. second gets up to the anchor, bunch of muffing around,.... ugghh. also, it is kind of a trainwreck if another party is rapping the route (think red rocks).

mattm - i greatly disagree that a single point (biner) will cause less rope wear. the sharper rope bend is harder on the sheath, and the rope grooves the biner more quickly which results in a sharp edge, which then wears the rope even worse.

jim, the french tickler is cute for quickly dropping the rope in and TR'ind directly. what about if people would prefer to use their own draws for TR'ing? again, the vertical offset makes this inconvenient.

i know, i know, equalization between 2 bomber bolts isn't critical - but when 9/10 climbers don't have the knowledge or background to determine when or what is critical do we really want them to just throw away the effort of trying to equalize? i don't think so. i think it is better to keep things simple so it isn't so easy for people to screw up. the horizontal layout is tried, true, and simple - i don't see how introducing odd configurations has any value.

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By redlude97
Oct 15, 2013
slim wrote:
that's why i said chains with big quick links at the bottom ;) also, the fixed point euro belay method blows. second gets up to the anchor, bunch of muffing around,.... ugghh. also, it is kind of a trainwreck if another party is rapping the route (think red rocks). mattm - i greatly disagree that a single point (biner) will cause less rope wear. the sharper rope bend is harder on the sheath, and the rope grooves the biner more quickly which results in a sharp edge, which then wears the rope even worse. jim, the french tickler is cute for quickly dropping the rope in and TR'ind directly. what about if people would prefer to use their own draws for TR'ing? again, the vertical offset makes this inconvenient. i know, i know, equalization between 2 bomber bolts isn't critical - but when 9/10 climbers don't have the knowledge or background to determine when or what is critical do we really want them to just throw away the effort of trying to equalize? i don't think so. i think it is better to keep things simple so it isn't so easy for people to screw up. the horizontal layout is tried, true, and simple - i don't see how introducing odd configurations has any value.

Actually more biners add more friction, acccording to Jim rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...

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By mattm
From TX
Oct 15, 2013
Grande Grotto
slim wrote:
that's why i said chains with big quick links at the bottom ;) also, the fixed point euro belay method blows. second gets up to the anchor, bunch of muffing around,.... ugghh. also, it is kind of a trainwreck if another party is rapping the route (think red rocks). mattm - i greatly disagree that a single point (biner) will cause less rope wear. the sharper rope bend is harder on the sheath, and the rope grooves the biner more quickly which results in a sharp edge, which then wears the rope even worse. jim, the french tickler is cute for quickly dropping the rope in and TR'ind directly. what about if people would prefer to use their own draws for TR'ing? again, the vertical offset makes this inconvenient. i know, i know, equalization between 2 bomber bolts isn't critical - but when 9/10 climbers don't have the knowledge or background to determine when or what is critical do we really want them to just throw away the effort of trying to equalize? i don't think so. i think it is better to keep things simple so it isn't so easy for people to screw up. the horizontal layout is tried, true, and simple - i don't see how introducing odd configurations has any value.


-To each their own on their belay pref but I've found a master point setup (easy with a belay sling) is MUCH faster if one person is leading most pitches. Swinging leads and the advantage decreases but a vertical setup is still faster than a horizontal if trying to just use the rope vs "extra" gear.

- re vertical anchros and TRing with draws - I REALLY don't understand why this is so difficult? Clip draw one onto the lowest link from top bolt, clip other draw to 2nd bolt. GTG


TR with QDs in an "inline" anchor
TR with QDs in an "inline" anchor

I couldn't get the ideal spacing on my wall T-nuts but it's close and illustrates the point

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By Ryan Kempf
From Boulder, CO
Oct 15, 2013
Ryan on the Sharks Fin wishing he was on Mt. Whiteny.
^^^ On a thread about "How to use rap rings properly" you post a pic of a TR set up clipped into the single rap ring? You wrote clip into the 2nd bolt, why does the pic not follow your written description?

Never go into the rap rings.... Bush league

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By mattm
From TX
Oct 15, 2013
Grande Grotto
Ryan Kempf wrote:
^^^ On a thread about "How to use rap rings properly" you post a pic of a TR set up clipped into the single rap ring? You wrote clip into the 2nd bolt, why does the pic not follow your written description? Never go into the rap rings.... Bush league


Left draw is into the chain directly connected to the upper bolt. Bottom Draw could go into either hanger or ring - less congested on this type of hanger to go into ring.

What's "Bush League" about a draw into the ring?

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By Greg D
From Here
Oct 15, 2013
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />
Ryan Kempf wrote:
Never go into the rap rings.... Bush league


The OP believed this too. Lets hear your explanation just for fun.

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By slim
Administrator
Oct 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
redlude97 wrote:
Actually more biners add more friction, acccording to Jim rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...


would you rather your rope run over a large smooth surface (bigger radius), or over a sharper surface (smaller radius). it isn't so much a question of sum total friction, which is shared over a longer piece of rope, as it is surface shear due to a smaller contact patch. a single biner (smaller radius) is definitely harder on your rope.

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By slim
Administrator
Oct 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
mattm wrote:
-To each their own on their belay pref but I've found a master point setup (easy with a belay sling) is MUCH faster if one person is leading most pitches. Swinging leads and the advantage decreases but a vertical setup is still faster than a horizontal if trying to just use the rope vs "extra" gear. - re vertical anchros and TRing with draws - I REALLY don't understand why this is so difficult? Clip draw one onto the lowest link from top bolt, clip other draw to 2nd bolt. GTG I couldn't get the ideal spacing on my wall T-nuts but it's close and illustrates the point


its ok, but not exactly the cleanest or simplest. i still think the 2 draws with horizontal bolts is a lot better.

also, this still doesn't really address the pain in the ass of replacing the rap ring.i do like how you use the quicklink, but if you have it fairly close to equalized when you install the bolts - there won't be enough slack to remove the quick link, right? so, you end up having to take the hanger of the top bolt off to remove the quickling - again, just not an efficient simple design. sure, it works. will i kill someone, probably not. but why not just do it an easier better way?

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By mattm
From TX
Oct 15, 2013
Grande Grotto
slim wrote:
would you rather your rope run over a large smooth surface (bigger radius), or over a sharper surface (smaller radius). it isn't so much a question of sum total friction, which is shared over a longer piece of rope, as it is surface shear due to a smaller contact patch. a single biner (smaller radius) is definitely harder on your rope.


I would love for the rope to run over a larger radius however, it doesn't work like that with two rings/biners... You've really just split the radius in two and separated it a bit.

Buried in that RC.com thread is some explanation via Jim Titt- "The radius of an object doesn´t change by placing another object beside the first, any child can see that. And the result of adding one part of a radius offset to another is that the rope bends, straightens and bends again so the work of bending has to be done twice increasing the resistance. " Someone else on there gave a visual of a box with rounded corners vs a larger radius curve.

I'd be curious to see if the friction of doubling up varies in a non-linear way to the radius of the object - i.e. doubling two 4mm biners "helps" more than doubling two 10mm objects. Also likely relative to the diameter of the rope being bent.... No clue honestly...

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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 15, 2013
Tom-osaurus Rex wrote:
Jim, What is the semi-open lowering devise thingy you've illustrated called? Are these made of Stainless Steel and what diameter? I can see the benefits of this system if made of SS due to the strength of the material.


They are (incorrectly) usually called pigtails even by us, strictly speaking they are ramshorns. Typical in the German speaking part of the world, my local wall uses them, they are standard fitment in the Frankenjura and loads of other places and becoming more popular. Probably sell about the same as rings nowadays and outnumber karabiners 10:1.
There´s a few manufacturers, mostly they are from 10mm stainless but we also make a 12mm version. The 10mm ones hold 15kN and the 12mm ones 30kN before rope release, easy to fit as they are a hammer fit onto the bolt.
They are a lot harder to bend than one would think but have no welds, no moving parts to go wrong and get good user response, not needing quicklinks is a big financial saving which makes them popular for retro-fitting top anchors.

They are lower-offs and not intended for top roping through.

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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 15, 2013
mattm wrote:
I would love for the rope to run over a larger radius however, it doesn't work like that with two rings/biners... You've really just split the radius in two and separated it a bit. Buried in that RC.com thread is some explanation via Jim Titt- "The radius of an object doesn´t change by placing another object beside the first, any child can see that. And the result of adding one part of a radius offset to another is that the rope bends, straightens and bends again so the work of bending has to be done twice increasing the resistance. " Someone else on there gave a visual of a box with rounded corners vs a larger radius curve. I'd be curious to see if the friction of doubling up varies in a non-linear way to the radius of the object - i.e. doubling two 4mm biners "helps" more than doubling two 10mm objects. Also likely relative to the diameter of the rope being bent.... No clue honestly...


It´s always been held that two biners/rings gives more friction but whether they give more rope wear than a single I doubt anyone knows, the place where we would get good results for a test would be at a gym but all the ones I know use one system or the other, not both side by side.
I´ve got some data on different radii and doubling up BUT it is dependent on both rope diameter and the load, see if I can find it tomorrow.
Not that any of this is particularly relevant I´d guess, if you reduce the friction at the top with the idea it reduces rope wear then what happens at the belay device?

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By slim
Administrator
Oct 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
jim's explanation of the added resistance being due to more work being done by bending twice isn't really a correct conclusion. where does this theory come from, that (2) 90 degree bends is more work than a 180 degree bend? even an electrician who has pulled cable through a conduit could tell you that this isn't the case.

a first year physics student will say that friction is independent of area, but if you study the tribology of objects that is pretty much the first thing that goes out the window. it is the shear stress at the contact patch that determines how quickly the biners and the rope will wear, not necessarily the total friction. with multiple biners you have more surface area from the tops of the biners which helps reduce the shear stress. this comes at the cost of more total friction force. and to be honest with you this is a really good trade-off. pretty much a win-win situation. less wear and tear on the gear, and the added friction is better for mis-matched weights, as well as better control lowering.

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Oct 15, 2013
Bucky
Jim Titt wrote:
They are lower-offs and not intended for top roping through.


Which is a big reason why I think they are a bummer. When I set up topropes for people, I always use my own gear and that setup makes it difficult to rig an ideal toprope anchor. Is that setup really cheaper than two pieces of chain hanging from the bolts? Doubtful. I much prefer to see two quicklinks attached to two independent bolts, with two sets of link chain hanging from the quicklinks. Simple, easy to update, redundant, and reasonably cheap. Not sure why such a setup needs to be "updated."

And on another note, I wish folks would stop using Metolius rap rings. Those pieces of crap are expensive, difficult to update, and they twist the hell out of your rope. Garbage.

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By slim
Administrator
Oct 15, 2013
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
i think the pigtails are a really stupid idea. when the anchor isn't directly above the last bolt (ie the anchor is diagonal upwards), it is really common that a slingshot top rope belay using the last bolt as a directional results in a bunch of twists at the climber's end of the rope. these twisted loops are the perfect size and shape to try to come out of an open shut like this. i find it amazing that people finally realized what a bad idea open shuts are, and then we are seeing a new and improved ..... openshut. but hey, it's cheaper right?

a good friend of mine, who is a very experienced climber, set up a TR for his wife and some friends at the new. he used opposing, non locking draws. the climbing from the last bolt to anchor was diagonal, as described above. when he climbed the route at the end of the day to take it down, the rope had unclipped from one of the biners.

and you think the pigtail is good idea jim? honestly, a lot of the things that you do i think are wonderful. i really do. but sometimes i really scratch my head at the things you come up with. the pigtail is a disaster waiting to happen.

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By mattm
From TX
Oct 15, 2013
Grande Grotto
J. Albers wrote:
Which is a big reason why I think they are a bummer. When I set up topropes for people, I always use my own gear and that setup makes it difficult to rig an ideal toprope anchor.


How so? Why can't you clip one draw into the bottom chain link and the other into the lower bolt eye? Nearly the same as pictured in my inline QD rig?

Rams horns are not open on top per-se - the horns extend past the vertical pieces creating a semi "closed" loop. Jim specifically notes they're for LOWERING not TRing through.

Better Picture:

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By Ryan Kempf
From Boulder, CO
Oct 15, 2013
Ryan on the Sharks Fin wishing he was on Mt. Whiteny.
mattm wrote:
Left draw is into the chain directly connected to the upper bolt. Bottom Draw could go into either hanger or ring - less congested on this type of hanger to go into ring. What's "Bush League" about a draw into the ring?


This issue is more related to ethics @ a belay/rap station, although there is a safety concern. Rap rings should be free of all clutter as a courtesy to the rappelling party. Sharing is caring, staying out of the rings while building an anchor is sharing responsibly. My 2 cents.

If you are weighting your top rope setup it could become extremely difficult to thread the rope through the rings. Gear in the rap rings adds clutter. A great percentage of climbing accidents happen while rappelling, reducing clutter makes setting up this process visually less difficult. There is also the issue of the rope running along/over the anchor/TR setup on the pull, which could possibly cause problems (nylon on nylon is no bueno). Your carabineer could have sharp edges from bolt hangers, possibly damaging the rap ring or rope running through the ring. Another possibility exist for a cross clip on the pull (unlikely but you know how fast that tail whips through the anchor).

Like I said in the beginning it’s more of a courtesy to stay out of the rings. Besides that, the rings are for rappelling, if you’re not rappelling stay out of them, simply from a wear perspective. You wouldn’t thread the rings to top rope from, don’t hang draws in them either. There are plenty of other points to anchor into in this scenario (bolts, chain).

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Oct 15, 2013
Bucky
mattm wrote:
How so? Why can't you clip one draw into the bottom chain link and the other into the lower bolt eye? Nearly the same as pictured in my inline QD rig? Rams horns are not open on top per-se - the horns extend past the vertical pieces creating a semi "closed" loop. Jim specifically notes they're for LOWERING not TRing through. Better Picture:


I am a bit confused by your picture because Jim's original image pretty clearly shows that the ramhorns are not pinched shut (ideal for dropping the rope in).

However, I see what you are saying, but it looks like that ramhorn thing-a-ma-jig takes up most of the space in the eyehole of the bolt. I would think it would be hard attach a locker to the bolt hole underneath the ramhorn, no? This would mean your only option would be to clip one of your lockers into the ram horns and hope that the load on the rope keeps the locker from sliding around and off (an unlikely but dangerous possibility).

Either way, I prefer your setup but with the quick link detached from the rap ring (why bother when it is super easy to simply thread the rap ring and the quicklink individually?)

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By Greg D
From Here
Oct 16, 2013
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />
Ryan Kempf wrote:
This issue is more related to ethics @ a belay/rap station, although there is a safety concern. Rap rings should be free of all clutter as a courtesy to the rappelling party. Sharing is caring, staying out of the rings while building an anchor is sharing responsibly. My 2 cents. If you are weighting your top rope setup it could become extremely difficult to thread the rope through the rings. Gear in the rap rings adds clutter. A great percentage of climbing accidents happen while rappelling, reducing clutter makes setting up this process visually less difficult. There is also the issue of the rope running along/over the anchor/TR setup on the pull, which could possibly cause problems (nylon on nylon is no bueno). Your carabineer could have sharp edges from bolt hangers, possibly damaging the rap ring or rope running through the ring. Another possibility exist for a cross clip on the pull (unlikely but you know how fast that tail whips through the anchor). Like I said in the beginning it’s more of a courtesy to stay out of the rings. Besides that, the rings are for rappelling, if you’re not rappelling stay out of them, simply from a wear perspective. You wouldn’t thread the rings to top rope from, don’t hang draws in them either. There are plenty of other points to anchor into in this scenario (bolts, chain).


I agree with you only regarding anchors that could see parties come from above needing the anchors to rap to the ground such as the Vertigo raps in Eldo. For single pitch anchors it is fine to use the rap rings to clip a biner for tr set up. Due to the relative hardness of aluminum alloy vs steel and stainless steel rings any burrs on your own biners are unlikely the impart any appreciable damage to the rings. Whereas clipping your own biners directly to bolt hangers will likely gauge and burr you own biners. If these are not dedicated "bolt side" biners or you simply are not aware of this phenomena, you may damage your rope at a later time by using these biners.

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By bearbreeder
Oct 16, 2013
folks ... we are all chasing our own tail

first of all ... clipping your aluminum biners into steep rap rings WILL NOT damage or wear out the rings to any appreciable degree ... people clip ROUNDED metal to ROUNDED metal all the time over and over again without any issues ... guides use masterpoint biners over and over again with clients ... we clip the chains all the time to set up lowers/raps

second of all .. this will NOT damage your own biners either .. the metal is ROUNDED ... nor are you taking WHIPPERS on em ... people have been using draws to hold body weight to set up raps and lowers in bolts forever, you arent falling on em in this application .. it wont damage the biner enough for it to be a concern ... now your biners on the bolt end that you take sport WHIPPAHs off, thats a different story

third of all ... you can set up a fixed point or other belay while someone is using the ring to rap ... in fact its SIMPLER than setting up a "normal" anchor ...

you can use your imagination with the below DAV diagram ...

fixed point belay setup DAV
fixed point belay setup DAV


the REAL advantage again is on multi with fixed point belays, something i suspect may become more common on this side of the pond

here is an excellent ACMG video on it ...

vimeo.com/44869774 (copy and paste text as vid will not embed)

and the IMFGA notes as well ...

outdoorlink.org/research-paper...

again MPers are basically arguing about nothing ... people are using these anchors all the time all over the place, more in euroland i suspect ... they arent dying off it ...

were arguing about perfectly safe anchors that work just fine ... first top rope, now rap, now damaging those anchors by clipping our biners to them, etc ...

mmmm ... the intrawebs

;)

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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 16, 2013
slim wrote:
i think the pigtails are a really stupid idea. when the anchor isn't directly above the last bolt (ie the anchor is diagonal upwards), it is really common that a slingshot top rope belay using the last bolt as a directional results in a bunch of twists at the climber's end of the rope. these twisted loops are the perfect size and shape to try to come out of an open shut like this. i find it amazing that people finally realized what a bad idea open shuts are, and then we are seeing a new and improved ..... openshut. but hey, it's cheaper right? a good friend of mine, who is a very experienced climber, set up a TR for his wife and some friends at the new. he used opposing, non locking draws. the climbing from the last bolt to anchor was diagonal, as described above. when he climbed the route at the end of the day to take it down, the rope had unclipped from one of the biners. and you think the pigtail is good idea jim? honestly, a lot of the things that you do i think are wonderful. i really do. but sometimes i really scratch my head at the things you come up with. the pigtail is a disaster waiting to happen.


Well, as I wrote before they are for lowering off NOT toproping, for that the climber is expected to set up his own gear. Normally one just clips a couple of draws into the chain, that is why it is long link chain. it´s also o.k to clip an HMS into the ramshron direct and backup with a draw up the chain somewhere.
Ramshorns aren´t my invention, they´ve been around for at least 25 years and are considered satisfactory by most organisations, in fact they are the example used in the UIAA draft standard on single-pitch top anchors.

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By Greg D
From Here
Oct 16, 2013
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />
bearbreeder wrote:
folks ... we are all chasing our own tail first of all ... clipping your aluminum biners into steep rap rings WILL NOT damage or wear out the rings to any appreciable degree ... people clip ROUNDED metal to ROUNDED metal all the time over and over again without any issues ... guides use masterpoint biners over and over again with clients ... we clip the chains all the time to set up lowers/raps second of all .. this will NOT damage your own biners either .. the metal is ROUNDED ... nor are you taking WHIPPERS on em ... people have been using draws to hold body weight to set up raps and lowers in bolts forever, you arent falling on em in this application .. it wont damage the biner enough for it to be a concern ... now your biners on the bolt end that you take sport WHIPPAHs off, thats a different story third of all ... you can set up a fixed point or other belay while someone is using the ring to rap ... in fact its SIMPLER than setting up a "normal" anchor ... you can use your imagination with the below DAV diagram ... the REAL advantage again is on multi with fixed point belays, something i suspect may become more common on this side of the pond here is an excellent ACMG video on it ... vimeo.com/44869774 (copy and paste text as vid will not embed) and the IMFGA notes as well ... outdoorlink.org/research-paper... again MPers are basically arguing about nothing ... people are using these anchors all the time all over the place, more in euroland i suspect ... they arent dying off it ... were arguing about perfectly safe anchors that work just fine ... first top rope, now rap, now damaging those anchors by clipping our biners to them, etc ... mmmm ... the intrawebs ;)


Umm. Didn't I just say that.

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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 16, 2013
J. Albers wrote:
I am a bit confused by your picture because Jim's original image pretty clearly shows that the ramhorns are not pinched shut (ideal for dropping the rope in). However, I see what you are saying, but it looks like that ramhorn thing-a-ma-jig takes up most of the space in the eyehole of the bolt. I would think it would be hard attach a locker to the bolt hole underneath the ramhorn, no? This would mean your only option would be to clip one of your lockers into the ram horns and hope that the load on the rope keeps the locker from sliding around and off (an unlikely but dangerous possibility). Either way, I prefer your setup but with the quick link detached from the rap ring (why bother when it is super easy to simply thread the rap ring and the quicklink individually?)


The gaps between the legs and the central loop is 11mm (or as near as we can get it!) to allow the rope to be installed. The bolt eye is large enough to install a locker as well (a requirement of EN959 anyway) but normally customers specify a larger bolt eye for more convenient top-roping.
This is the pain in the butt with the Kong ones where you don´t get anything!

Kong Bull
Kong Bull


The reason they are popular is that, despite the conjectures of what is dangerous that you see splattered all over the internet a quick glance at the accident reports shows anchor failure/ropes magically unclipping etc are unheard of BUT "simply thread the rap ring and the quicklink individually" is apparently not a skill set mastered by all climbers with a number of fatalities every year. Avoiding threading at the top is of more benefit than worrying about wear on a top rope or equalising the bolts and the ramshorn is a cheaper and more reliable solution than karabiners.

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