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How often do you fall?
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By jumping fish
Apr 23, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

kevin deweese wrote:
Dude I was just messing with you If you ever want to climb a wall with me I'd be honored to climb with you Mr. Jumping fish. You are my idol and I so would do anything to have you as my master.


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By Josh Kornish
Apr 23, 2012
The Roach

"if you ain't flyin' you ain't tryin'"


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By kevin deweese
From walnut creek, ca
Apr 23, 2012
don't throw rocks

Way to ignore the heavy weight Ed Wright brought to the thread Fishy.

ps. it's spelled "idol"


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By jumping fish
Apr 23, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

Kev if you want me to be your master then you have got to stop questioning me with such a pesimistic attitude. If Ben goes out and climbs some A-whatever and isn't redundnt with his placements then the same accident could also happen to him.

Mr. Wright can you tell us what you were climbing and where the fall occured? Please.


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By cms829
Apr 23, 2012
high e

If you feel the need to equalize a piece, then cut the crap, weight the better placement (of the two, or seven pcs u placed) and keep moving. Two crap pcs, equalized, ain't gonna do you much good, aside from lookin pretty before it blows I can't begin to think about a situation where this would be beneficial to the safety, or well being of the climber. I tried. I really did. But I failed. Miserably. Can you lay it out for me? Maybe I've been missing something all this time.


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By jumping fish
Apr 23, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

cms829 wrote:
If you feel the need to equalize a piece, then cut the crap, weight the better placement (of the two, or seven pcs u placed) and keep moving. Two crap pcs, equalized, ain't gonna do you much good, aside from lookin pretty before it blows I can't begin to think about a situation where this would be beneficial to the safety, or well being of the climber. I tried. I really did. But I failed. Miserably. Can you lay it out for me? Maybe I've been missing something all this time.


I have already explained it thoroughly If you can not grasp my concepts then perhaps you may benefit from reading 'climbing anchors' and after that read 'more climbing anchors'. Take those two books with you to the crag and play around with the techniques detailed there.


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By cms829
Apr 24, 2012
high e

I must of missed the benefit then. Perhaps you should give us a true example of how what why and when you should equalize marginal aid placements. You have got me geniounly curious. Better yet, give me a REAL LIFE experience that you have had where it was beneficial for you to utilize your "tactic". You post all this crap you find in books and then question everyone here who gives you advice which they gained through real world experience. Maybe you should just go pay a guide to teach you the basics, now that would be time well spent. You need to have a grasp on the reality of these things before you go asking people how to retreat with a haul bag or debate something you haven't experienced yet. I don't go onto an aviation forum telling a pilot how to land properly. Do it and you will learn it. I read plenty of books and paid many qualified people to teach me the basics, 15 years ago.


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By jumping fish
Apr 24, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

well I can try but unless you have climbed it then you may not understand untill I go over there and show you.

On pitch 3 of the prow on the washington column there is a fragil left facing crack. The crack is about 1/2' thick and smaller than that in some places. Due to the weathering of the granite it is decomposing thus becoming week. When I lead this pitch I did not bounce test even one piece untill I reached the top of the pitch. The only two bomber pieces were The first cam on the pitch under a roof and the last #3 cam just above a bashi at the top of the pitch.
During the aiding of that pitch the edge of the fragile flaky crack
continued to break. It was very difficult to get a solid piece in.
I remember placing TCU's with only two of the three lobes making contact with the rock. Sometimes the piece I was on only held while I was keeping weight on it. After I placed a new piece the piece below would fall out effortlessly. My adrenalin was racing as I was terrified by the sketchyness of each placement. For some reason I kept climbing. Towards the top I began placing two pieces and weighting them with a sling equalized by a sliding x knot. Top stepping covered the distance I needed for lack of pieces. I reached the anchor and my partner followed. He reached the anchor and said I was crazy for leading that pitch. My partner was trying to talk me into down climbing from the very first 15'. But I was determined to climb it. We rigged the ledge at the top of pitch 3 and the next day my partner wanted off so we bailed.


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By jumping fish
Apr 24, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

I don't give a shit who you paid I just went through the trouble to try to answer you to help out and then I return to find out that your acting like a total dick. I never said there was a bennefit either. What I said was you could bennefit from reading a book. I'm done here don't pester me anymore.


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By cms829
Apr 24, 2012
high e

I shouldnt have to say another word, Yarp and some others already tried speaking to you in past posts. For your own sake I would take a step back and think about what your doing. In the past, you asked about using a braided line man. Take your own advice, Find a guide or a solid partner. Thats all I have to say to you.

Remember when you said this? "You guys are really lame. Whatever. I guess I just have to hire a guide."

Do it.... Or stick to your tree climbing for now so you dont hurt some innocent party on your next google images big wall adventure.





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By Leeroy
Apr 24, 2012

muttonface wrote:
I've climbed routes on aid, but nothing over A1. I'm not an aid climber unless I bite off more than I can chew.


Oh. So you're not an aid climber but here you are shit talking and expounding upon your baseless opinions because you read something in a book and think you're a math major. Figure it out douche and stop following me around MP. Call me whatever name you want but that won't change the fact that you have no idea who I am. Keep stabbing in the dark though moron if it makes you feel better.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Apr 24, 2012
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

My 2 cents...I have done some aid climbing, but am by no means an aid expert...I'm on the learning phase...It is just common sense to me that the harder the aid climbing, the more likely a fall. The whole basis for aid difficulty is the ease/quality of the gear. So it stands to reason that if the gear is harder to find or is of lesser quality, then the chance of a fall is is higher. A couple of my hardest and biggest falls have come aid climbing, and because all my weight was standing on an aider and pulling on the gear the falls tended to be less controlled (as compared to a typical free climbing fall) and more easily tipped me backwards. As far as equalizing gear on an aid climb, in my limited experience, this seems less than likely for 2 reasons. One, on any real aid pitches that I have done, finding one ok piece of gear is challenging enough, let alone two, unless the pitch is pretty easy (C1/C2) in which case you wouldn't need to equalize anything. Two, unless you can equalize two pieces horizontally, any two equalized pieces would almost certainly cause you to lose the height advantage of clipping the higher piece. IMO gaining as much height per placement is part of the goal while aiding. Again, I'm pretty new to aiding (although I have been climbing for almost 20 years), so there is a chance that with more experience my views on this will change.


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By Mark Hudon
Apr 24, 2012
On the North America Wall in 1977.

In my four recent routes, I've taken four falls, one due to rock breaking and the other three due to cams pulling. Two of the pulling cams I later noticed were stiff and sticking closed and not expanding enough to fill the crack. The last pulling cam was just a poor judgement on my part.

I've never equalized multiple pieces to move up but I haven't done anything of what I consider A4 or A5 yet. It's in my bag of tricks though.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Apr 24, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
Oh. So you're not an aid climber but here you are shit talking and expounding upon your baseless opinions because you read something in a book and think you're a math major.


Common knowledge does not required in-depth analysis and case studies and years of experience. In fact, the nature of aid placements and the severity of falls is how aid routes are graded. Your bullshit statement "Aid falls don't happen very often unless you're not very good at it." is disproved by aid climbing itself. I don't expect you to comprehend the asanine nature of your statement. Clearly you're not a critical or logical thinker.

You should probably disagree with this guy at bigwalls.net also. He sounds like a complete n00b and I'm sure your experience and opinion trumps his as well. His description of A3+:

"A3+:Like A3, but with dangerous fall potential. Tenuous placements (like a marginal tied-off pin or a hook an a fractured edge) after long stretches of body-weight pieces (here body-weight placements are considered for all practical purposes any piece of gear not solid enough to hold a fall). Potential to get hurt if good judgement is not exercised. Time required generally exceeds 3 hours for experienced aid climbers. Example: Pitch 3 of "Days of No Future" on Angel's Landing in Zion, the crux being 50 feet of birdbeaks and tied-off blades in soft sandstone followed by a blind, marginal Friend placement in loose rock which was hard to test properly, all this above a ledge."

Common knowledge: Tenuous placements = more probability of falling. Find me a "real" aid climber that will argue that. You don't have to be an avid aid climber to know that.

Common knowledge: The earth is round. You do not have to be a geologist or an astronomer to know this either.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
Figure it out douche and stop following me around MP.


Because I respond to a thread, or more specifically your post to a thread, does not mean I'm following you around. Perhaps your paranoia is becoming overwhelming. Stating this is a weak attempt, by you, to try to dissuade me from calling you out for being a completely unpleasant shithead. Fail.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
Call me whatever name you want


I think I already did. Let's just assume I have your permission from now on so you won't have to give it to me outright.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
but that won't change the fact that you have no idea who I am.


Hence your emboldened, belligerent dickish nature. Anonymity affords you the courage that you inherently lack.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
Keep stabbing in the dark though moron if it makes you feel better.


Common knowledge: The shit-stirring nature of your posts that offer nothing constructive whatsoever and serve only as a platform for you to get your jollies by talking shit makes it obvious who you are.

Don't get too wrapped up in this thread dorsey. There are plenty of others with honest questions from n00bs, or posts from people with whom you disagree that you can spray your mouth diarrhea all over. My penpal and friendly feel-good email offer still stands. I'm not too proud to give you an e-hug.


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By jumping fish
Apr 24, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

cms829 wrote:
I shouldnt have to say another word, Yarp and some others already tried speaking to you in past posts. For your own sake I would take a step back and think about what your doing.



You don't have to say anything to me at all and you never did have to say anything.


cms829 wrote:
In the past, you asked about using a braided line man.
Yes and it is a kernmantle rope with 24 strands 13mm with a higher breaking streangth than your 8mm dental floss, g-string, pansy rope.

cms829 wrote:
Take your own advice, Find a guide or a solid partner.

That was so I wont end up climbing with a pansy ass coward, or some sort of analitical ignoramous such as yourself.

And what your problem is that you take bits and pieces of my posts and talk so negativley about ME. After someone else chimes in. In support to your negativity then you join in with the gang insted of examining the whole truth. Your statements about me are full of half truths and decption.

So how many walls have you done?
Do you want to partner up with me?



tree climbing Love it.
tree climbing Love it.


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By cms829
Apr 24, 2012
high e

LMAO...I guess you could call my glacier rope pansy...I mean, It is purple after all. I dont climb big wall, and never claimed to. I have been climbing for 15 years and Im still LEARNING. I climb aid, trad, sport, ice, and mixed in the Northeast. No...I certainly do NOT want to climb anywhere near you. Let alone with you. Unless you have your 13 mil with you. And cookies...I like cookies.

None of your posts make any sense what so ever. You claim to have experience but ask all these ludicrous questions and make deceptive statements, and post photos you take from the internet. I simply dont understand why....It makes no sense. If you want to learn, go find a partner and climb, and most importantly LISTEN to those experienced climbers here who are trying to set you straight. Instead you get into battles with these people on EVERY one of the topics you start. THATS what pisses me off. Because you automatically become defensive....When instead you should sit back, listen, and learn a thing or two. YOu have had NUMEROUS EXPERIENCED aid climbers in this thread explaining to you why there is no reason to do what you claim you do. Maybe you should begin to think that they know something you dont and learn from it. Or your going to spend a LOT of wasted time setting pcs that arent necessary all while dragging your 13 mm cord.You say you boulder, well thats great. Take it slow and learn as you go. Cheers....be safe


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By jumping fish
Apr 24, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

cms829 wrote:
I guess you could call my glacier rope pansy... I dont climb big wall, and never claimed to. I have been climbing for 15 years and Im still LEARNING. I certainly do NOT want to climb anywhere near you. Let alone with you. None of your posts make any sense what so ever. Cheers....be safe


What do you mean cheers be like were all friendly now?

Your talking all this shit and don't even have any experience what so ever at bigwalling.

I knew you wouldn't want to climb with me before I even asked.
And your lack of concern is down right belligerent. Your lack of expierence shows by what your writing. If you knew so much about ropes then you would have corrected me when I stated that the braided rope is a 24 strand kernmantle rope. A braided rope is a rope with no core and not a kernmantle rope. It is a static rope with 0% static elongation. Perfect for rigging and hauling not for taking falls.

You are just chiming in on the topic because you are associating your self with begining noob learn. The only problem I have with your presence is that you are here trying to impose your ideations on a person other than myself by deliberatly making personal attacks aganist my expertice. You have admittnly claimed that you do not climb bigwall yet you are posting in the bigwall forum. My guess is that you saw the home page of MP and jumped strait to that topic with no concern for anyone other than yourself. What I don't get is your reasoning behind singling me out. Mabey someone has put somthing in your cookies. Mabey you got a call or private message saying "Dude I'll hook you up if you join in with me to talk trash on J-fish."
Needless to say it is totally unsportsman like of you to presist with this attitude. I don't want you to get pissed off at me. But your being illogical and making it difficult to maintain a rational conversation with you. Your jealously is absolutly immature.


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By cms829
Apr 24, 2012
high e

LOL....you realize this is an aid climbing forum right? Your post is a prime example of why myself and everyone else on this forum has singled you out. Im not even sure what beginning noob learn means. Im not even sure what the majority of that post means. I think your confused by who is illogical. And wtf are you spitting out about my knowledge of ropes? It was you who was asking about a braid in your past post. Goodbye buddy old pal...Do the climbing community a favor and dont hurt anyone with your ignorance.


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By jumping fish
Apr 24, 2012
tree climbing Love it.

I ain't your pal dickhead


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By cms829
Apr 24, 2012
high e

Oh sure you are. You dont have to hide it.


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By kevin deweese
From walnut creek, ca
Apr 24, 2012
don't throw rocks

Who knew such a question would bring out the fighters? I guess the Mods don't bother with the aid climbing forum. Makes sense considering the demo of the forum.

Personally, trash talking is so much more fun when people are forced to be oblique and creative. I'm tempted to flag certain posts but in the end, it's funnier to laugh at them as they remain.

- - -
Back on topic.

Something that hasn't been brought up in response to the "as grades get higher the falls increase" idea. In general, I would say that there's less falls that one would expect in the upper grades because most climbers when they reach that point, look ahead at the blankness or chossiness ahead of them, or step onto a sketchy placement only to see it skate around and say "to hell with this" and bail either back to the ground or over to another easier route.

Metaphorically, higher grades are like a crazy biker bar. You'd expect there to be lots of fights and violence in the bar because of the people in it. But in reality, everyone that would get beat up and in a fight just walks in the door, stops, looks around, and heads back to their car.

- - -

(edit: don't get me wrong, I admit that I'm being douchy too, I'm just saying...)


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By handon broward
From Rochester, NY / Aspen, CO
Apr 24, 2012
Elk Range, CO

kevin deweese wrote:
Who knew such a question would bring out the fighters? I guess the Mods don't bother with the aid climbing forum. Makes sense considering the demo of the forum. Personally, trash talking is so much more fun when people are forced to be oblique and creative. I'm tempted to flag certain posts but in the end, it's funnier to laugh at them as they remain. - - - Back on topic.

I agree with this guy!

more imporrtantly, your bickering has stopped Mr. Wright from telling us about his epic fall! I wonder if you guys are grown men?


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By Leeroy
Apr 25, 2012

Nice little rant Mutt! Unlike several people in this forum posting advice I'm not new to aid climbing. I understand the grading system. Obviously you do not.

According to your "logic" it would be not only be normal to fall on A5 but one could assume that A5 falls are common eh? Harder grade means more falls right? No. A5 means you fall you'll most likely die and you'll probably take your partner with you. Not sure what you were trying to prove with the quoted text but you failed miserably. Keep trying though, this is fun.

I know this will come as a shock to you Mutt but A5 routes are getting done in the valley, AS I TYPE THIS. Not by me of course, I've never done anything harder than C3. You go ahead and check tomorrow and see how many teams fell off the wall. Do you hear about alot of aid climbers getting severely fucked up in aid falls? No. Why? Because as the grade's get harder falling becomes less of an option if you want to survive. You get better at placing gear and don't experience a 1 in a 100 failure rate as has been suggested as normal in this thread. That is ridiculous!

Aid falls are far less common than free falls. Unless of course you don't know how to place gear. Then you will fall a lot. Get a little experience and then let me know if you still think your theory is sound. If you're falling on C1-C2 then you sure as hell don't want to get on C3 or up.

Until then...enjoy your little circle jerk mental feel good exercise of acting like a trigger happy neighborhood watch volunteer for MP.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Apr 25, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Leeroy Jenkins wrote:
According to your "logic" it would be not only be normal to fall on A5 but one could assume that A5 falls are common eh? Harder grade means more falls right?


Wrong. That's not my "logic" at all. Your reading comprehension is almost as horrid as your social retardation. I said the probabilty of falling is higher as placements become thinner and more tenuous. Please quote where I said harder grade means more falls. I agree that guys aiding badass A5 routes probably have their shit wired tight and know very well the consequences of falling, thus acute attention to detail is paid to each placement so that doesn't happen. But to sit here and argue that thinner, sketchier placements don't offer more opportunity for error is fucking ludicrous. Think about what you're arguing. I'm saying a nut in a tight constriction around solid rock affords more security than one wedged in a flake that sounds like a dinner plate when you slap it.

You're attempting (feebly, I might add to anyone with half a brain) to put words in my mouth to make your point and in the process you're missing it entirely. You're offering a straw man fallacy by presenting things I never said, tying what I did say to it, then calling the whole thing wrong. We're arguing two entirely different points, not one. Your point is valid, you're just a dick so it detracts from the quality and poignance that would be there had you not been one. My point is valid, and you think I'm a dick because I called you out for being one, and the fact that I respond to your obviously vitriolic nonsense detracts from mine. The fact that this little pissing match has gone on this long detracts from the OP and the entire thread. For this, I apologize. Yet it's like a train wreck I can't keep from looking at. That's what's going on. Nothing more.

I take it you're declining my offer then?


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By kevin deweese
From walnut creek, ca
Apr 25, 2012
don't throw rocks

I surprised nobody posted the Aid Climbing Rant yet.



www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=>>>


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