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By mr. mango
Jun 10, 2013
north wash
Part one
m.youtube.com/watch?v=_M2BjfG6...

Part two
m.youtube.com/watch?v=BS-5QaLO...




Yer Gonna Die!!!

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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Jun 10, 2013
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.
In Scuba they have licenses for certain things. Examples would be like wreck diving, reef, etc. Some are mandatory, some are not.
Its videos like these that make me wonder if it would be a good thing to have licenses in climbing. None mandatory. But just a license to show that the person has been trained in whatever they are teaching.
For example the rappelling video. If he had flashed his red rappelling license we'd know he was trained. Then again, not every trained person does anything right. But at least your odds are better... ?
Just a thought that has crosse my mind more than a few times. Especially when climbing with a new partner. A flash of the yellow trad anchor license would make me feel a lot better.

Plus, it would clear up some spots to climb... (EDIT: No nvm on this sentence)

Anyone else think about this?

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jun 10, 2013
tanuki
I really like the independent nature of climbing, and would HATE to see certifications become the norm. I believe that there are a plethora of good training organizations out there, and people can get training if they want it. There are more than a few guide services that specialize in providing folks with the skills they need to be safe and have fun in a vertical environment. However, all the certifications and training in the world will not save people from themselves. As a diver with a moderate amount of dive time, I have seen plenty of "certified" divers do incredibly stupid stuff. IMHO, the training / certification process required in SCUBA does little to weed out the incompetent divers, and the competent / incompetent ratio is just as bad if not wore in SCUBA. Much like climbing, I am amazed that there are not more deaths every year due to inexperience and stupid mistakes.

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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jun 10, 2013
CoR
I love the "How not to" series. Especially when I am not starring in it.

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By mr. mango
Jun 10, 2013
north wash
I agree with NC. If you don't trust someone's skill, don't climb with them.

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By Dan Bachen
Jun 10, 2013
At least that guy was using actual climbing equipment unlike this Darwin award nominee...


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Jun 10, 2013
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.
@NC
That is pretty much what my exact opposing statement would be. Just thought it might be an interesting convo to see what everyone else thinks and if more people would preder somethin like that. There are definitely are some positives that would come from it.
And also, you are exactly right about trained divers doing dumb things. "Let's see how deep we can go!" ...

Anyway, guess im just wishin that people would be more responsible when taking up life threatening sports and get real training.

Ill just have to keep an eye out for rappellers who watched these vids. climb safe

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By Rob Gordon
From Hollywood, CA
Jun 10, 2013
Tough Mantle Problem.  Haven't sent yet...
I like this guy. He's sort of picked up on the importance of redundancy, but doesn't understand why or how. Seems like a nice guy who could really benefit from some hands on instruction.

I think the sketchiest thing might be that rail he's trusting.

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By AThomas
Jun 10, 2013
Yeah, I think the kid is doing alright, but he should know better than to frame this as an instructional video. It's also sketchy that he'd leave the video up, after I'm sure he was flamed mercilessly.

He literally says that he only knows this stuff, because he's read a few books. If that and his twitchiness aren't big enough red flags for viewers, I don't know what else we can do.

And it's not like he's rapping at a crag or on El Cap. (Now there's a what-not-to-do thread.)

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jun 10, 2013
tanuki
There have been a few threads focused on videos where folks are doing really sketchy stuff. I even started one a few months ago. It is amusing to see how ignorant some "climbers" are, and I guess that there is a sense of superiority that we all get from pointing out how (obviously) stupid an inexperienced noob can be.

However, along with my revulsion at their ignorance and, in some cases, pure stupidity, I also have a sense of appreciation for them getting out there and doing it. These days, I see far too many people with new gear that never gets used and "climbers" that are afraid to finish a climb because of a 10' runnout. The guys in the video are not climbers, but they are not sitting on their asses waiting for an instructor to hold their hand. They are taking risks and getting after it. Are they talking stupid risks? Hell yes! But I do appreciate their sense of adventure.

Let the flaming begin!

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By Tj Elmblad
Jun 10, 2013
"A kinky rope is a pest."
No my paranoid idiot, you are a pest.

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By s.price
From PS,CO
Jun 11, 2013
 Morning Dew ,self portrait
People gotta die. People gotta be allowed to do stupid shit. Why in the hell should you need a certificate to climb?

Choose your partners as if your life depends on it, cause it does.
33 years. So far, so good.

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Jun 11, 2013
OTL
AThomas wrote:
And it's not like he's rapping at a crag or on El Cap. (Now there's a what-not-to-do thread.)


Funny you should say that:

supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1...

nps.gov/yose/blogs/Rappellers-...

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By Rob Gordon
From Hollywood, CA
Jun 11, 2013
Tough Mantle Problem.  Haven't sent yet...
Johnnyrig... Maybe the trouble you're having finding partners is based more on your attitude than you being a noob....

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By David Barbour
From Longmont, CO
Jun 11, 2013
Rob Gordon wrote:
Johnnyrig... Maybe the trouble you're having finding partners is based more on your attitude than you being a noob....


Definitely. At least in my area (NC), people are very encouraging of new climbers who are trying to get outside. Who would want to mentor a noob with an attitude?

FLAG
By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Jun 11, 2013
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.
ChaseLeoncini wrote:
In Scuba they have licenses for certain things. Examples would be like wreck diving, reef, etc. Some are mandatory, some are not. Its videos like these that make me wonder if it would be a good thing to have licenses in climbing. None mandatory. But just a license to show that the person has been trained in whatever they are teaching. For example the rappelling video. If he had flashed his red rappelling license we'd know he was trained. Then again, not every trained person does anything right. But at least your odds are better... ? Just a thought that has crosse my mind more than a few times. Especially when climbing with a new partner. A flash of the yellow trad anchor license would make me feel a lot better. Plus, it would clear up some spots to climb... (EDIT: No nvm on this sentence) Anyone else think about this?



You know what scares the bloody piss out of me at my local crag (Devils lake)? The fact that you can open a guide service with ZERO certification of any kind. Zero training, zero certs, zero proof that you have any clue what you're doing. You can literally walk into REI, get a couple harnesses, a bajillion feet of webbing, some biners and a belay device and you can take clients out climbing. I just found that out last year, because I have a friend who owns a guide service, is certified, and who is just baffled at the number of guides who have zero training, and can't even lead a 5-fun pinnacle and set up a safe top rope on it. That said, I know guides are a hot topic. Personally I'm a big fan of having guides to help beginners get introduced, and open up new opportunities to go harder for intermediate climbers who need to learn anchor systems, placing gear, etc. But to allow untrained slags to be the ones guiding is just scary and irresponsible.

FLAG
 
By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Jun 11, 2013
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.
NC Rock Climber wrote:
I really like the independent nature of climbing, and would HATE to see certifications become the norm. I believe that there are a plethora of good training organizations out there, and people can get training if they want it. There are more than a few guide services that specialize in providing folks with the skills they need to be safe and have fun in a vertical environment. However, all the certifications and training in the world will not save people from themselves. As a diver with a moderate amount of dive time, I have seen plenty of "certified" divers do incredibly stupid stuff. IMHO, the training / certification process required in SCUBA does little to weed out the incompetent divers, and the competent / incompetent ratio is just as bad if not wore in SCUBA. Much like climbing, I am amazed that there are not more deaths every year due to inexperience and stupid mistakes.


Excellent points.

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By Jon Miller on the WS
Jun 11, 2013
You know, it think that it is great that this kid is out there trying it. Calling this an instructional video is a stretch, because he certainly isn't doing everything correctly. He did ask for helpful suggestions from viewers. It is obvious that he is learning on his own. Other than useing a locker on his anchor, preferably 2 his rig is safe enough. There are a lot of things he could do more efficiently, but hell he is getting enjoyment from ascending a scruffy little concrete wall! Good for him!

Besides how many of you can even tie a Bachmann knot? I've seen way more sketchy set ups from far more "experienced" climbers.

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By Dan Bachen
Jun 11, 2013
johnnyrig wrote:
Interesting. Lots of flaming for people who are trying to learn and apparently not having much success.


Its not really the fact that they are new and trying to figure it all out, I think everyone goes through some version of that phase. Its that they are posting what little they know on youtube as how to videos. Trying to learn an activity is great, sharing incorrect or dangerous knowledge that might cause injury or death is unacceptable. At least the guy from the OP's video has the decency to recommend taking a class. There are plenty of excellent resources available if you want to teach yourself how to do it right, I think the critical knee jerk reaction many people have to these videos is a healthy response that benefits everyone.

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By MRock
Jun 11, 2013
Split shin after 5.9+ R lead
30k views! Holy moly.

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By Jason Kim
From San Diego, CA
Jun 11, 2013
Descending Cox Col (Bear Creek Spire). Photo by Ryan Slaybaugh. <br />
It is possible to scuba dive without a certification or license. I was introduced to the activity this way. It's just very difficult to dive many locations if you're lacking a recognized cert, since you usually rely on guides and their boats/tanks/gear. I will occasionally dive in the tropics, but have mostly given it up because there is so much damn hassle and $$ involved.

Compare this to climbing, which can be enjoyed with minimal hassle and $$. It's refreshing, in this sanitized and bubble-wrapped world we live. Let's all pray that our increasingly litigious culture doesn't find a way to ruin that.

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By Jason Kim
From San Diego, CA
Jun 11, 2013
Descending Cox Col (Bear Creek Spire). Photo by Ryan Slaybaugh. <br />
johnnyrig wrote:
If yer all so encouraging, how many of ya emailed the dude offering up your vast knowledge and support vs flaming away?


I've only read two of your posts but I can totally understand why you're having trouble finding a partner.

Look, if some moron posts an instructional video on youtube doing stupid and potentially dangerous things, they should fully expect to be flamed. This is climbing, after all, not origami.

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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Jun 11, 2013
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.
@Jason
That is a serious worry i have every day.
I constantly worry that one day youll have to pay to climb, or Yosemite (Summiting El cap and Half dome are on my bucket list) closes due to too many deaths or the sport gets so popular it does develop laws and other things like that. I really do appreciate the freedoms we have in climbing.
When diving, if a new buddy says,"oh yeah ive got my wreck license," i feel a lot better about diving in wrecks with him. Its not a mandatory cert just something that is nice to see i guess. It would be nice if a new climbing buddy flashed me their trad anchor cert.
Anyway, i still like the way it is now better. Its only a thought.

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By RockinOut
From NY, NY
Jun 11, 2013
Gear
I dont see why everyone is equating a SCUBA cert to possibly having one for climbing. People still die or get seriously injured SCUBA diving, even though EVERYONE is supposed to be trained in at least the basics by someone who is qualified to do so. JUst because there is a cert doesnt mean accidents, injuries, and deaths will be prevented.

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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 11, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
johnnyrig wrote:
well let md be clear- I started out with a positive attitude and this one has developed over the last two years of trying to meet people here, at the gym, and at the crag. I f-n give up. But hey, just think- every time I actually DO get out there, I represent you! Only I get to portray exactly what my own skewed perception has been, and john q public wont know the difference. Now if thats not a kernel of positive warm fuzzies in your gut, well... If yer all so encouraging, how many of ya emailed the dude offering up your vast knowledge and support vs flaming away?


I'm a fucking snarky dickhead that is a sketchball pussy when gear or bolts are below my feet and I have a pool of partners to pick from that are pretty solid and have way better lead heads than me. A few of them have done big walls successfully and one or two lead in the high .12s, low .13s. Some of them are just starting to place gear, and others have been doing it for almost 2 decades.

I also live in an area that isn't chock full of climbers either. So that's saying something. I've been at it for almost 3 years. If you're two years in and can't find partners, it's you. I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the writing is on the wall. I'd still climb with you though. Hope things turn around for you. At least consider that some of the problem lies with you, and you may have better luck.

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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Jun 11, 2013
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.
@rockinout
The only reason scuba certs are being used is it was the example i gave in my original reply. Any example could have been given but i dive so it was something random i could relate my thought to. And yes in my original reply i said that people do still die with proper training. Usually, (and this is in my opinion) people with proper training die from being over-confident and pushing their limits. Such as when a diver, knowing that the wreck is sunk on its side and he may get disoriented, decides well fuck it ive done this plenty of times i dont need a reel. Then he goes in, kicks up silt and drowns. Or when a climber thinks, well the book said 5.8, i can run it out.
People with lack of training usually die from ... well, lack of training.
And of course there is always the wrong place at wrong time incidents.

FLAG


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