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By Monty
From Golden, CO
May 9, 2011
Just a teaser
ADRIAN!!!!! ADRIAN!!!!!

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
May 9, 2011
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
DRAGO!

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
May 9, 2011
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
interesting perspective JLP.
i think another good rule of thumb is having sport redpoint limit about 1 full grade above onsight level. and trad redopint level about 2 full grades above trad onsight. when you push your redpoint limits, i feel it helps bring up the onsight ability...

besides, projecting after say a couple dozen attempts is a mental crux. especially if you have proven to yourself that you can do the moves physically. but do not underestimate 'low-percentage' type moves.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
May 9, 2011
El Chorro
LeeAB wrote:
Ryan, the difference between .11b and c seems easier to you because you can do it. The grade gap is supposed to stay the same, I know, completely arbitrary. There are lots of people however that would argue that as the grade goes up the difference gets smaller as people look for the next harder grade to please the public. There will always be hard and easy routes at any given grade.


Yea you are right, I guess I kind of worded that wrong. There is not supposed to be a bigger difference in grades in the 12's than 11's... it just gets harder to ad on that extra letter the higher you get because you are approaching your limit.

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By DisturbingThePeace
From Albuquerque, NM
Jun 3, 2011
PBR Time at the Creek
Tom, great topic, I have wondered this myself as well. I'm in the same situation where I can send 13- in a few goes, but 13+ feels impossible. I tend to get discouraged quickly on routes that I can't do all the moves on (most of the hard routes in NM are basically boulder problems) so I've never given anything a whole lot of goes. The most goes I've ever given a route is 11, with most of my harder sends being in the 5-9 trys range. I'm beginning to run out of the "easier" routes in my area so I've been trying to attempt harder projects and stay motivated for them. I think I read somewhere (maybe Self Coached Climber) that around 8-10 goes was the optimal range for learning.

On the routes that took 30 goes, did it feel impossible for the first 10 or 20 goes. How long did it take to do all the moves?

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By 1Eric Rhicard
Jun 3, 2011
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo
Darren Mabe wrote:
for one route is somewhere between 175-200 attempts (every time i tied in for it), i lost count after 150 or so because it doesn't really matter. but i have enjoyed every one.


Jesus Christ Darren! I am glad I am not an outlaw and you the sheriff. That must be some climb. It would have to be a really really great route for me to put that much time into it. I admire your tenacity. Eric

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By Sam Stephens
Jun 3, 2011
Top half of Melifluous
1Eric Rhicard wrote:
Jesus Christ Darren! I am glad I am not an outlaw and you the sheriff. That must be some climb. It would have to be a really really great route for me to put that much time into it. I admire your tenacity. Eric


I admire whoever he suckered into belaying him on one route that many times.

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By D-Storm
Jun 3, 2011
Enjoying a misty day on top of the Bookmark on Lum...
Bottom line: Are you having fun? Are you psyched to get on that proj for the 50th burn? That's all you have to answer. If you're only doing it to check a box in the guidebook and each burn ends in a hail of echoing F-bombs, then it might be time to find something else for a while. I know. However, I do think there is some etiquette when it comes to projecting desert cracks.

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By Josh Olson
From madison, wisconsin
Jun 3, 2011
Looking at a 5.7 crack with Nick
D-Storm wrote:
Bottom line: Are you having fun? Are you psyched to get on that proj for the 50th burn? That's all you have to answer. If you're only doing it to check a box in the guidebook


Although I want to agree that having fun is the only thing that matters, there is nothing like checking a box that you've been looking at for months or even years. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.

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By inboulder
From Boulder
Jun 3, 2011
Mogotes, Vinales Cuba
I think an equally good question would be, where they heck are you people finding belayers that are willing to go back for 30+ redpoint attempts?

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jun 4, 2011
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
Sam Stephens wrote:
I admire whoever he suckered into belaying him on one route that many times.

inboulder wrote:
I think an equally good question would be, where they heck are you people finding belayers that are willing to go back for 30+ redpoint attempts?

the ones that also put in 30+ redpoint attempts. ;) thx dave.

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By djkyote
Jun 4, 2011
over time, I've learned to enjoy the process, like Sisyphus

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

The longest I have spent is about 12 days: 3 bolt to bolt, 4-5 to get to the final crux, then 4ish on actual attempts at linkage. so, at least 40 times on the route, but only about 12-15 actual attempts. aside from warming up, it was all I climbed for 6 weeks.

knowing i would do the route at like day 8 was probably more satisfaction than the actual send.

great posting Tom, i think regardless of the grade, the dedication to the process is what reaps the greatest rewards.

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By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jun 4, 2011
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of ...
djkyote wrote:
over time, I've learned to enjoy the process, like Sisyphus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus The longest I have spent is about 12 days: 3 bolt to bolt, 4-5 to get to the final crux, then 4ish on actual attempts at linkage. so, at least 40 times on the route, but only about 12-15 actual attempts. aside from warming up, it was all I climbed for 6 weeks. knowing i would do the route at like day 8 was probably more satisfaction than the actual send. great posting Tom, i think regardless of the grade, the dedication to the process is what reaps the greatest rewards.

excellently put.

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By gordwah
From colorado
Jun 12, 2011
Tom Rangitsch wrote:
I expect this has been discussed before on MP, but I can't find the post, so here goes. I just sent a project that was pretty hard for me and took a while. It got me to thinking about how many goes I usually take on a project and what is the "norm." This particular route took around 30 redpoint attempts, and I have put in probably 45 on another route in the past as my max. I figure it usually takes me about 15-20 if it is something really hard for me. Just curious what other people have experienced. Please don't post if you are one of these "dude, I am so trad and if it takes me more than 3 tries I move on" types. I am more interested in people that attempt long term projects and have experienced the "Jesus Christ, why am I still pounding my head against this stupid pile" moment, eventually following by the "yes it was all worth it" moment that invariably lasts about 5 minutes.

Some people might call me a gym rat but in the winter I usually try hard climbs at my max but when you project hard in the gym and climb hard you get power. In say when you project 5.12 in the gym during the winter and send a lot of 5.12' s you get the power for 5.12 and when you go outside climbing in the summer you get the brains for 5.12 and then that year you have conquered 5.12 and your on to 5.13.

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By James Arnold
From Chattanooga
Jun 12, 2011
Chew toyed
Interesting take on this over on the Moonblog, here's the synopsis...

I see at many wall climbers frittering away their talent and energy in pointless training or idle posing-the ‘big fish in a small pond’ syndrome. In comparison, my own personal success story (first ascent of Make It Funky, my one and only 8C) came not out of my relatively small fund of natural ability or strength but from a huge commitment of time and energy; 60 days spread over 3 years actually trying the route were based on a foundation of at least 200 training days (based in blocks before the chosen ‘redpoint season’). Everything was geared towards achieving success

moonclimbing.com/Mark-Pretty--...

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jun 12, 2011
Bucky
JLP wrote:
I rarely put much work into a route that is over a full # above my 75% onsight. I have met climbers who rather consistently fail to onsight 2 full # grades below their [claimed] hardest redpoint. These guys spend too much time projecting, not enough climbing.


Interesting perspective. So then what about the converse? For e.g., my hardest redpoints (which have taken between 3-7 tries) are only a letter grade or two above what I have onsighted multiple times and only 3 letter grades or so above what is a fairly consistent onsight level for me.

I guess it is possible that my situation is the way it is because I really enjoy onsight climbing and/or perhaps I find onsight climbing more rewarding (....or maybe because I am total lazy wanker.) Regardless, I wonder whether my climbing would benefit from spending more time projecting things (say more than 20 tries on a project.)

Any thoughts from those of you who project a lot? Do you get different things out of onsighting a lot of routes versus long term projecting? Have you found projecting to be crucial to your progression as a climber?

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By Helldorado
From Boulder, CO
Jun 15, 2011
I have been working on a hideously technical and friction dependent boulder problem for the past year. It is on a glass smooth vertical face and starts with a good left hand side-pull scoop, with one good foothold directly below the left hand about 20 inches below. You have to flag/smear and push hard with the right foot and deadpoint up to the shittiest little crease of all time up and right, which you press into with two fingers, stem up with your right leg on a glass smear and lock off. The next move is slightly easier, but it is so friction dependent that I have to wash the right hand crease off after every time I try it. I usually only have two burns in me when I visit, as it is shouldery, extremely frustrating and really only feels possible on 40 degree (and zero humidity) or colder days.

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By martinharris
From Glenwood Springs CO
Aug 23, 2011
So I onsite 5.9/10 trad and mid 10 to low 11 sport. And I can pull all the moves on my 11d projects. But linking has not happend on lead or tr. Granted I am at like 4 tries. Does this make my project not even a project? I considered a project any good line bat you want to send. But 50or 60 tries sounds like absurdity.

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By Rob Eison
From Denver, CO
Aug 23, 2011
Projecting is paramount to improving one's climbing ability because it forces you to discover your limitations and recognize your weaknesses. This is irregardless of the style, whether trad, sport, even bouldering. The victory comes not from the send but from overcoming these limitations. The number of attempts is variable per individual but probably irrelevant because invariably one's climbing improves both physically and psychologically from the achievement itself.

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By lee hansche
Administrator
From goffstown, nh
Sep 7, 2011
getting to the last jug before the top out
i take very few tries for the most part (all the 12s and 13s ive sent have been in 1-7 goes) but i think thats cause i have worked up to where i am very steadily... i climbed lots of each grade before moving on to the next, i have a stable pyramid to say the least... im not too motivated by hard grades but more by the feeling of the movements.... hanging on ropes or feeling like a move is really straining on my body takes away from my experience... anyway there is one route ive taken about 15 tries on (it will not be my hardest according to the numbers), it could go next try or it might never... either way its fun to climb and thats what matters to me...

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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Sep 8, 2011
Pure bliss..
Tom Rangitsch wrote:
To Ryan (since you asked), 13c is the grade of my longest lived projects. One was over two seasons, the over the last two months ( not much to do in Lander in March and April). I have been able to climb 13- relatively quickly, but pushing it up to 13+ has been a challenge for me. Don't really know how much of that is mental and how much physical.


Same thing here. When I was really rollin', 13a' and b's 2nd/3rd try everytime. 13c I hit a slight wall and went to 2 or 3 days. 13d's were 4-9 days at the most. These were mostly in Hell Cave/Rifle/Eldo/Flatirons/BoCan/Potrero etc. Most all sport.

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By Joseph Stover
From Batesville, AR
Sep 8, 2011
What counts as a try? Just count the number of falls? Or the number of hours/days spent obsessing over it?

Most of my projects, I send in a few tries, but I'm not pushing myself. When I did my only "hard" project, it took being at the crag 3 times, with probably a total of about maybe 20-50 falls total on TR before nailing the sequence (it took a LOT of tries to get a sequence of about two moves). I only actually 'attempted the redpoint' twice, maybe three times. However, I did the lead more than that, but I wasn't really going for the redpoint.

Usually when I get a project in my head, it means I am in send mode and will get it quickly. But "The Breeze" did take me 6 redpoint attempts in a row (that was after 2 TR's, the second one was clean)! I don't even remember how many tries "Steve's Arete" took... those pumpfests just get me...

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