How many goes?

I expect this has been discussed before on MP, but I can't find the post, so here goes.

I just sent a project that was pretty hard for me and took a while. It got me to thinking about how many goes I usually take on a project and what is the "norm." This particular route took around 30 redpoint attempts, and I have put in probably 45 on another route in the past as my max. I figure it usually takes me about 15-20 if it is something really hard for me. Just curious what other people have experienced.

Please don't post if you are one of these "dude, I am so trad and if it takes me more than 3 tries I move on" types. I am more interested in people that attempt long term projects and have experienced the "Jesus Christ, why am I still pounding my head against this stupid pile" moment, eventually following by the "yes it was all worth it" moment that invariably lasts about 5 minutes.

I kind of AM one of those dudes that moves on after three tries, and have never been on a route more than 8 or nine times.

That said, I hang out w/ climbers of all types, and I've known plenty of people to give a route 30, 40, 50 attempts before sending. I'd guess than 30 is probably more common than 50.

Just out of curiosity, what grade are the climbs that took you 30 and 45 attempts? And in what sort of time period did you make all of those attempts? No one come on here and say that grade doesn't matter, because at that volume, IT DOES.

21 on a 12a, it took so many burns I started to call the climb I am Inferior

I have 2 days on my most recent project and I still can't do the crux move. Not sure how many it will take to red point but I'm determined to do it no matter how long. How do you stay psyched when the same move shuts you down over and over?

I've never projected anywhere near 50 tries but I can see starting to project more as I get into the 12s. Mostly curious about the mental side of things. Do u stick with one project or do u take a break by climbing stuff you know you can get up?

I've already said that I'm not a project climber, so I could be wrong here.

But I sort of think that if you are taking, on average, more than 15 or so tries to do a 12a then you should probably be doing more work at the 5.11 level. Of course some routes just have your number and will take you a long time, but 12a is a completely obtainable grade for most climbers.

I'm not saying that you should stop working on 5.12's, but to answer one of the above questions, I think you have to space it out a bit. If you are working on a route that is that difficult for you, it will put a lot of strain on your body. Two days w/o being able to do the crux is considered a "threshold" work out (climbing at a route so far above your level that you can't do the moves at all).

This is beneficial, but you shouldn't be doing it two days in a row and if you work on this route all day you should probably only do it once a week or less. This will also keep you psyche, because you can be sure that you'll want to work on the route more than 3 or 4 times a month.

On the other climbing days you should be working on routes that you can on-sight and routes that you can complete in one day (4 or 5 tries). Climb with a purpose on these days. During your warmup and cool down, REALLY FOCUS on your movement, climbing as efficient as possible.

If you're falling off your project because you get too pumped, you need to be working on your aerobic and anaerobic endurance. You don't do this on your project, but on routes one and two NUMBER grades below the project.

If you falling off because you can't actually do the moves, even when fresh, then you have to work on power as well. This is done by bouldering, and well thought out training burns on your project, or other routes of similar style and difficulty.

It's healthy to have a big long term goal (like a route that you can't even do the moves on currently) but it's also very beneficial to get a lot of milage on routes that you can complete in a day or less.

Think of it like a pyramid. You can't put a 12a on top until you've gotten a few 11ds to set the 12 on, and you have to stack those few 11d's on even more 11c's.

If your project is super steep and powerful, then build your pyramid out of steep and powerful routes. If it is a long, pumpy endurance-fest, then build your pyramid out of long pumpy routes.

OK I'll stop rambling now...

When I see "30 goes on a route"...I read training. At that point..you really are just training specifically for that route.

Also, I think it may be a matter of tactics. Is every go on the route a redpoint attempt?? I was just talking to a guy at the crag the other day who impressively sent one of our old school 13d's in only 3 goes...3 goes!! However, he doesn't count working burns as redpoint attempts. He had been on the route a bunch before, but used each go to really suss out each move. I think if you project a route wisely, you can really cut down on the number of goes it takes you.

If I am getting on a route near my limit, I will purposely go bolt to bolt on the first go. The area I climb at is pretty cryptic as it is so these bolt to bolt runs are key. After I feel like I have the moves on lock I will try to do some longer links...resting in spots even if I feel like I could keep going just to preserve energy. Depending on how I am feeling about the route at that point, I might give it a redpoint go...or wait if I am feeling trashed.

I think using these tactics (while admittedly dull and not at all bad ass) I have found that my crag days are far far more productive, and I get more out of each time up a route. In the past, I would start climbing...always in flash mode...and Go until I was too pumped to continue. I would grease off, rest and make my way to the chains. I just spent a lot of energy trying to flash a route instead of figuring out efficient movement for it. On my next go, I would probably fall around the same area because I might still be chuffing my way through the lower moves which I haven't taken the time to really dial in. These two radically inefficient goes would really take a lot out of me and I may not even have a solid redpoint go in me that day...

Before I get a bunch of comments on how my fitness needs to increase if I am only able to give so few burns in a day, keep in mind that the area I climb is pretty physical, long (120'+) power endurance climbing...A good solid go on a route takes a lot out of you!! I feel like with my current fitness, that I might have 5 solid goes in a day (not counting working burns..every two working burns is probably worth one solid rp go.)

Okay...ill stop rambling now too...Im just so excited that there is a new thread in the Sport forum..

I think 12-20 was my max (forgot to count). But there is one route that is very close to my house that I've probably put in around 150 redpoint attempts (not counting working days)... Sad, maybe, but one day it will go down.

Ya Dave, you gotta send the stoutness!!

low.key.og wrote:When I see "30 goes on a route"...I read training. At that point..you really are just training specifically for that route.

This.

Just because you dogged Apollo Reid for over 50 times in 6 months and finally sent it, doesn't mean that you gained anything except the ability to climb that route. You may have accomplished one route, but you're not gaining anything as far as climbing ability on other routes or other styles of routes.

The most I've ever given on a route was at 10. That was over a span of a year and a half or so. I'd get it on it when I was in the area, give it a go or two, and if I didn't send come back to it later. Later being a week, a month, or even a couple months. Routes that take me that long are typically 2-3 letters above my onsight level when I start, and only a letter above or at it when I send.

That's just my approach to it though. I kind of understand the 50+ tries thing but I don't care for it. I got to climb with a buddy of mine this past week who I hadn't climbed with for a while. He's the type to dog up a route, figure out the beta, and then spend the rest of the time trying to redpoint. I was able to take some of this mentality to my harder gear projects, which was helpful, but I still can't get down with the 50 burns to send something mind set.

Yea, +1 to just about everything that's been written since I last posted.

low.key - definitely agree w/ you about the "flash mode" kicking your ass versus starting a route with the intention of working the moves being the way to go. My hardest send was a mid-5.12 in about 8 tries. I tried to flash it, fell at the crux. Tried about 6 different sequences before I finally did the crux, then preceded to "flash" the second half of the route. Made 6 or 7 more attempts over the next few days (also climbed other stuff) and every time I would fall at the crux or just above at the next hard move 'cuz I didn't have the moves dialed. I did it "quickly" in the end, but if I had gone bolt to bolt, I probably could have done it in one day.

I also think that it would be cool to compare the number of attempts to how close the route is to home. All of my hardest sends have been somewhere that I was sort of living. Even if it only took me two or three tries, they weren't necessarily on the same day or even week.

I love to onsight routes. I try to onsight everything in the 12 range that I get on. It is a blast. I also like to project things that inspire me. The most difficult route was a trad protected route that took me 40+ runs. If I hadn't wanted to do a trad route at that grade more than anything I would have walked away. In fact a week before I climbed it I had a real heart to heart with myself. It was beginning to feel like a job I didn't like so I had to decide how bad I wanted to do the route. The answer was really bad. Changed my attitude and climbed it about 6 tries later despite not losing the 5 lbs. I was sure I needed to lose before I would get up it. The mental game is so cool.

That is the hardest route I have ever done. As far as what the norm is? There is no norm. We are all different and at different places. Lots of people never get inspired/obsessed enough to work that long on a route. Some of us do some don't.

One of the keys to reducing the number of runs I need to redpoint is tactic. As I said I try to onsight everything even if it destroys me for that day. Once I have fallen I then go bolt to bolt and work out the sequences all the way to the chains. Then on the way down I will redo the ones I am hazy on. Getting things dialed as best I can. Then I eat and drink and rest for an hour or more then try really hard to send. If I fail I begin the same process working moves and trying to commit sequences to memory with an real effort to remember foot placement. This latter has really shortened my working time.

I include all runs once I can make all the moves when I tell you it took me 40 runs. Tactics, man that is what gets me up routes faster.

Sam Stephens wrote: This. Just because you dogged Apollo Reid for over 50 times in 6 months and finally sent it, doesn't mean that you gained anything except the ability to climb that route. You may have accomplished one route, but you're not gaining anything as far as climbing ability on other routes or other styles of routes. The most I've ever given on a route was at 10.

You make this statement then you admit you don't have the experience to support it.

My experience with a number of 15 to 25 run projects and on or two 40+ projects is that it is helpful for other routes and styles of routes. Perhaps not on cracks if I have been doing face but I might still do better on it than if I hadn't been working(training) so hard on the project.

Definitely good to have a project close to home. Mine were all within 3 hours or so, the farthest was 6.5 hours. I still want to get back to Pretty Hate Machine.

Thanks for the replies. Glad to here about other neurotic folks out there going through the same mental bullshit.

To Ryan (since you asked), 13c is the grade of my longest lived projects. One was over two seasons, the over the last two months ( not much to do in Lander in March and April). I have been able to climb 13- relatively quickly, but pushing it up to 13+ has been a challenge for me. Don't really know how much of that is mental and how much physical.

1Eric Rhicard wrote:You make this statement then you admit you don't have the experience to support it. My experience with a number of 15 to 25 run projects and on or two 40+ projects is that it is helpful for other routes and styles of routes. Perhaps not on cracks if I have been doing face but I might still do better on it than if I hadn't been working(training) so hard on the project.

My experience with climbers who project routes in this manner has given me the impression that it doesn't do you any overall good. I don't personally project routes that will take me 50 tries to do because I know plenty of people who do this and overall I would consider myself a more well rounded climber than the climbers I know that dog up routes 50 times before they can send them.

My experience with climbers who project routes in this manner may be different than other peoples though. The climbers I've climbed with that climb like this project routes in the 12+/13 grades and routinely fail to onsite 10+/11-. That and none of them know how to keep their shit together when they get on a gear route, if they've ever been on a gear route, no matter what the grade.

Maybe it's a different story for climbers who climb solid 5.12 and project 5.13.

Tom, 13c... I don't think you need to worry about how many burns it takes you... for 13+ it's gonna be a lot! And from what I've noticed from the handful of 12+ climbs that I've been on is that the higher you get in the grade, the harder it is to climb one letter grade harder. Meaning that there is much more of a difference in 12b and 12c than there is between 11b and 11c. I suspect it's even harder for 13's, 14's etc.

I also am more like Sam in that I feel like by getting on a ton of routes at and just above my on-sight level, all different styles, that I am a more well rounded climber than some of my friends. That matters to me because I want to be relatively comfy at a certain grade, ANYWHERE; even when I'm 20 feet above an RP on unknown terrain, super exposed at a high altitude with a storm rolling in and I need to get the hell to the next belay so we can bail.

I'd venture to guess that the people doing 30+ burns on routes aren't so worried about that. Maybe they are (I know Eric R was at one point in his life), but that is not what they are hoping to get out of the super project. They are looking for something different, and that's OK.

Sam Stephens wrote: My experience with climbers who project routes in this manner may be different than other peoples though. The climbers I've climbed with that climb like this project routes in the 12+/13 grades and routinely fail to onsite 10+/11-. That and none of them know how to keep their shit together when they get on a gear route, if they've ever been on a gear route, no matter what the grade.

Oh yeah, I guess I have seen some of this crowd too. I guess most of my experience has been with more solid climbers who after putting a ton of time in on something see marked improvement in their sport climbing ability and more confidence in their overall ability which has allowed them to push their trad climbing standard. This applies to friends who have put tons of runs on 12s and 13 trad routes then begin tearing up the sport routes at those grades.

I also see guys from the gym who can climb circles around me and my buds inside but they don't seem to excel outside. No judgement just an observation.

To Low.Key.og who posted that someone only counted the times they were trying to red-point, that is complete BS, every time you leave the ground you are learning new things about the route. If I used that way of counting I've done .13+ first go, what a joke. You can have tactics like working a route bolt to bolt to start and eventually trying to send but that does not mean that you did not try the route on those previous attempts.

Tom, if you are doing .13- in a few goes I take that to mean that you are not on-sighting or flashing the grade. It is pretty normal for people to red-point at the very high end 1 number grade above what they on-sight, obviously there is variation in this depending on the person, but it sounds as though you are right in that range. This is for best on-sight and best red-point.

Ryan, the difference between .11b and c seems easier to you because you can do it. The grade gap is supposed to stay the same, I know, completely arbitrary. There are lots of people however that would argue that as the grade goes up the difference gets smaller as people look for the next harder grade to please the public. There will always be hard and easy routes at any given grade.

I too have observed in my own climbing that as I have worked through the grades, it has taken more time at each level to establish a new hardest send. I think my first 13a took 5 or 6 tries, whereas 13c took 45 for the first time. I am I approaching my absolute ceiling, getting too old, training inappropriately, or is that the nature of the beast?

I guess it could be all of the above, although I really doubt age has much to do with it. I still feel almost like I did when I was 25.

Tom, ask Mono, he'll recommend training...

This all boils down to ego.

If you try something that is hard for you it might take a few times.
If it is really hard for you it might take you several times.
If it is really, really hard for you it might take dozens of times.

But, there is a point where it is just way above your ability. But, you feel you must send a 5.X. Just about the numbers at this point. I know if MP had in the profile ON SIGHT grade next to "leads x trad", "leads x sport", the grade for many would be much lower for onsight vs lead.

I've onsighted every single 5.7 lead I've ever done.

Yes...I am a god among mere mortals.