How do you tell your old school climbing partner that some of his techniques are out of date?

So let me give some back story here. My climbing partner and I have been climbing together for two seasons now. He has expressed some interest in going to Yosemite and trying the Nose. However I am somewhat hesitant to do this and I don't want to offend him.

When we started climbing together he came out of retirement (he's been solo aid climbing for at least the last decade). It was the first time he had put on rock shoes in over a decade. Now you would think that as a solo aid climber he would have excellent rope management, time management, gear management etc... skills, but he doesn't. When we climb I supply rack/rope, his rack consists of old forged friends that he bought second hand 20+ years ago. He has the utmost faith in his equipment and for aid climbing it is probably OK. Even though of his own admission he has experienced slings start to tear under body weight while solo aiding a local roof crack.

How do I approach the subject of fast and light with someone who hauls the kitchen sink?

How well do you know him? If you know him well, just say - "OK, here's a few things that we should talk about before we do this...."

if he's a good partner for the trip, he'll be receptive. Just don't start out telling him he's all wrong. Just point out how you'd like to approach the goals.

Max Lurie wrote:...Even though of his own admission he has experienced slings start to tear under body weight while solo aiding a local roof crack.

'nuff said, move on. He doesn't get it, you telling him he doesn't get it won't change anything.

As a relatively old (47) tradster, given your discussions with him re gear, etc., if he hasn't gotten it by now, he won't. I'm guessing he didn't climb on ancient gear back in the day, so why do it now. Though I've always bouldered, etc., when I started getting back into trad after some time away for kids, work, etc., one of the first things I did was buy a new rope and get my old cams reslung. The aluminum on rigid Friends doesn't deteriorate; the slings sure do. That stuff you can't fudge.

If the issue is you think he needs shiny new C4s to be safe, that's just being anal. If you're rightfully afraid of a sling ripping apart at a hanging belay halfway up the Nose, that's just common sense. Your buddy has to keep up or get left behind.

Max Lurie wrote:How do I approach the subject of fast and light with someone who hauls the kitchen sink?

Haven't you basically just done that now by posting here ?
Or does his kitchen sink bag not include online access and no friends who might tip him off?

Besides, do you really want to be up on a wall, even if trying to free blast it, with a guy who climbs on slings that are ripping ?
To me that indicates a huge safety disconnect.

Max Lurie wrote:So let me give some back story here. My climbing partner and I have been climbing together for two seasons now. He has expressed some interest in going to Yosemite and trying the Nose. However I am somewhat hesitant to do this and I don't want to offend him. When we started climbing together he came out of retirement (he's been solo aid climbing for at least the last decade). It was the first time he had put on rock shoes in over a decade. Now you would think that as a solo aid climber he would have excellent rope management, time management, gear management etc... skills, but he doesn't. When we climb I supply rack/rope, his rack consists of old forged friends that he bought second hand 20+ years ago. He has the utmost faith in his equipment and for aid climbing it is probably OK. Even though of his own admission he has experienced slings start to tear under body weight while solo aiding a local roof crack. How do I approach the subject of fast and light with someone who hauls the kitchen sink?

Why would you consider trusting your life to someone who climbs on slings that can't hold body weight.

Jay

I am totally going to be this crotchety old guy one day. Oh wait.. nevurmynd...

"old forged friends"

They are the longest lasting cams most durable cams out there.

Another option would be to just climb an aid route with the guy and accept the slow and heavy style, I think it's worth doing at least once (maybe get him to re-sling his cams first!)

There is no excuse for slings ripping through due to being old beyond belief. If your old style partner isn't willing to update his skills, ensure his gear is safe, then, as others have asked, why are you climbing with him? Yeah, he might be a great guy, but you really are taking additional risks that seem unnecessary.

I am an old school trad climber, and I recently replaced my ropes, harness, re-slung my cams and I listen when some one has a more modern approach to doing someething.

Your buddy should 'modern up'

Max Lurie wrote:Now you would think that as a solo aid climber he would have excellent rope management, time management, gear management etc... skills, but he doesn't.

This isn't an age/youth issue. There is a difference between outdated technique and poor technique. According to your description, your guy has the latter, and if you are right about his experience, he's been ingraining bad habits for at least ten years. If you went out with an experienced big-wall climber from, say, the eighties, you wouldn't be noticing any of the problems you mentioned and might even learn a thing or two.

I'd say that if you like him, want to climb El Cap with him, and want to be diplomatic, then tell him that, as a team, you need to train for speed and efficiency for El Cap and then see if you can educate him during the process.

My F Friends fit on my rack quite nicely with BD, TCUs , C3s HBs and the rest. New wire gates even work with them.
How did old friends end up to equal bad slings?
Not sure how many times they have been reslung in thirty years.
Some aid climbers never were and never will be fast. Some do not want to be.
If your fast and he is slow find someone who climbs at the speed you want.

I found its way better to offend someone on the ground than on a wall.
Done it both ways, not sure I ever saw one guy again after he bailed and I did not.
Yes he lived and had enough gear to make it down safely.
It made for some interesting dynamics on the wall.

I can agree with the slings and stuff, but nothing wrong with Stiff Friends, I have plenty of them and they work great.

Rope amanagement is another story. I he doesn't get it, he won't. Doing the Nose requires real good rope work.

I had a similar experience with the person that basically introduced me to trad climbing. I was gung ho and heavy on the book info but didn't have any practical experience. We went to the local crag once and then he just handed me his ancient rack and said go get em tiger. Before climbing on any of it I sat down and gave it a good once over.

It consisted of about 20 nuts, half of which were the same size and were OBVIOUSLY home made (He's very proud of them), a couple of rigid Friends reslung with something that looked to me to be about 5 mm spectra. He told me he didn't bother with slings on the one each Metolius and BD cams that he had. Instead he would clip the rope directly to the cam with a single biner. Not one single sewn sling on the rack other than the daisy chain that was damaged at the end because it slipped out of his pack and got caught up in the tire of his motorcycle along with his helmet. He still uses both.

You do not want to know what his rope looked like. He swears it's hardly been used. Strangely enough...I believe him.

I realized then, that he was bat shit crazy. We still climb together sometimes but I have forbid him to use any of his gear if I might have to weight it. He always brings everything and never uses any of it. I've never seen him build a trad anchor and I've only cleaned a couple of his routes...lets just say I'm really happy that he didn't fall.

More recently he decided that since I was getting into aid he'd take me to the crag and show me a couple things. He ended up hitting the deck (gently) when his 4th piece popped on what I found out later was his first aid lead. I guess those first three pieces in the first 5 ft didn't help him out that much.

He is, however, an adquate belayer if you keep him stoned. I wouldn't consider doing anything multipitch with him let alone a big wall, but he's still got the dream and he's a hoot to hang out with. Crazy people always are!

I wish Jardine had made Friends available when I did the Nose in 77. We carried 60+ pins - up to 4 inch bongs for the Stovelegs, You should be happy to have found a partner with such modern high-tech gear...

Eric
You only missed them by a year or two. I had a one two and three and it felt like cheating . I dubbed them rock jumars by 79.
You could buy the in the lodge parking lot in blocks for $2,000 from Ray maybe as early as 78?

Just direct him to mp.com and make sure he takes a look at the General climbing forum.

He'll get the hint.