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how do you nicely tell someone they are belaying wrong
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By Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Jan 26, 2013
blah

yesterday when trying to escape the rain, a group from LA started climbing next to us. they were using Grigri's and cinch's with no hands on the brake...the entire time. they would pull through slack then drop their hands and reach for water, cigs, food. Paying very little attention to their climber. I am just paranoid? I use a Grigri, and still keep my hands on the brake the entire time, I am I out of the times? how would you have started a dialogue about their terrible belaying habits?

I am i Gonna watch someone die?


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By FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Jan 26, 2013

Mr. Lizard,

Check out this recent thread:

mountainproject.com/v/do-you-speak-up-when-seeing-someone-ma>>>


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Jan 26, 2013
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:
yesterday when trying to escape the rain, a group from LA started climbing next to us. they were using Grigri's and cinch's with no hands on the brake...the entire time. they would pull through slack then drop their hands and reach for water, cigs, food. Paying very little attention to their climber. I am just paranoid? I use a Grigri, and still keep my hands on the brake the entire time, I am I out of the times? how would you have started a dialogue about their terrible belaying habits? I am i Gonna watch someone die?


look the other direction. Common occurence at BRC


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jan 26, 2013
El Chorro

You don't have to tell them anything. Just give the climber a fiver to fall when he sees his buddy reaching for the cigs. When he whips his buddy will get pulled into the wall and smash his face. That will teach him to pay attention.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Jan 26, 2013
Stabby

I'd be pissed about the cigs, hate that shit. Besides that, let Darwinism work its magic, too many people around anyway.


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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Jan 26, 2013
You stay away from mah pig!

You just have to gauge the personality and receptiveness of the people making the error, and then weight that against the severity of the mistake that they are making. There are a lot of subtle dynamics at work; large groups, meatheads, or boyfriends trying to impress their dates will be less receptive to you speaking up than small groups, or blatant noobs that are obviously unsure of themselves. You gauge the necessity of speaking up based on the receptiveness of the group and the severity of their mistakes.

With the group in question, I probably would have just left.


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Jan 26, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

"Please, sir... you're going to kill or injure someone, sir, or get yourself hurt. Please keep your brake hand on the rope and pay attention, sir. Thank you for listenin' to my pleas. Have a wonderful day, good sir."


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Jan 26, 2013

It depends, if you're in Italy and there's a 5.14 climber being belayed like this on a 12c, then you just keep your mouth shut.


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By Peter Stokes
From Them Thar Hills
Jan 26, 2013
Wall Street, Moab, UT

Andrew Bisharat, Sam Elias and Emily Harrington shot this neat little video on the subject at Rifle in 2011... it'll play if you click on the picture (not on the "vimeo plus" text) even if it says something about not embedding it here



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By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Jan 26, 2013

tell the person climbing so they get pissed at their crap belayer :P


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By Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Jan 26, 2013
blah

To them it was business as usual they had no problem with the belay they were receiving and went so far as to mock me for living in Zion and climbing trad but being at a sport crag when it was raining. I dident speak up because honestly the least obnoxious thing they were doing. we couldn't really leave, its a small single pitch limestone crag with about thirty routes on it, it was just so fucking werid, they were building campfires and screaming beta and shouting about how they were N***ger Fa***ts for not being able to send 5.10, just really damn loud, obnoxious people, and no they were not there to warm up before sending all the sik 5.hard projects at the wall just to gang bang easy routes. i almost sent my 12b sport proj though yay me!


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 26, 2013
modern man

I used the grigri in (brake)hands free mode for years while smoking all kinds of things. Never used the "n" word even though it was usually safe to do so in Utah.


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By Aaron Bugh
From Bozeman, MT
Jan 28, 2013
Me

Don't be afraid to say something!

If somebody is doing something obviously wrong, call them out on it. Try to do so nicely but some situations need to be taken care of faster than you can come up with something tactful to say. It may not be your responsibility to say something, but imagine how bad you would feel if you didn't and somebody got hurt.

The fact of the matter is, if they are responsible smart climbers they will probably thank you for saying something! If they get mad about you trying to help keep them safe then i put $20 on them getting hurt badly doing something stupid, if not that day then later on.

I work at a local gym and when I got off I went to go boulder around. I saw two groups of regulars lead climbing. One of the climbers got 3 clips up and took, the next climber started his route and wound up climbing directly on top of the first climber, even clipping the clip directly above. I ran over and asked the belayer of the first climber to lower her down. His response was that they were there first, to which I responded it no longer mattered they were there first, if he fell she was still going to get badly hurt. I then Told the belayer of the top climber to make sure they didn't climb on top of any more climbers!

The point is, if you see something wrong, address it! Worry about lives first and feelings second. Don't be nagging everyone over the little things, but climbing is dangerous enough as it is. Wouldn't you like to know if you were doing something wrong and didn't know or notice? Ideally you come down from the climb able to climb again. This is a community of climbers, let's help each other out.


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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Jan 28, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protect between Bolt 2/3 just post crux . <br /> <br />Picture credit goes to eric Singleton, and many thanks to Josh Bagget for the great belay.

Please Speak up if people are doing something that is dangerous...The other day i was at a climbing gym when a big class came in and was doing belay/climbing instruction. I was traversing the wall just waiting for my partner to show up. I notice the guy climbing about 10 ft off the deck didnt have his harness doubled back...I immediately told the instructor that i believe the kid's harness wasnt properly doubled back and bouldered up to check. Sure enough it wasnt. I asked the kid to down climb with me and check his harness.

It might have not come unbuckled when he leaned back 40 ft later, but it might have causing him to crater into the concrete floor...People are usually receptive to a little help if approached with a positive attitude

T


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By TWK
Jan 28, 2013

Just don't say anything and keep your camera handy. Think of the pictures or video you could get.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Jan 28, 2013
Thumbtastic

Fuck positivity once some idiots start parading their psychoses about and setting shit on fire, while belaying and otherwise. The whole "we're all "climbers", it's a *"community"*" nonsense wore off with me years ago after one too many gym-tards decided to give me a speech designed to let me know how much more special and important they are because they don't engage in ______(insert ethical faux pas here). I really don't have patience for schmucks, whether they're on the idiot box (kill your tv, there's a reason I have never paid a cable bill in my life, and no I don't get it free either), perched on a pad getting philosophical to impress sallow, under-breasted would-be shart climbers (male and female, being fair here) at some testosterone-free zone at a gym, or, worst of all, up in my face at some place I would've otherwise really enjoyed the peace and quiet at.

This is one of those times where you pretty much have to leave and concede defeat or start challenging them in the "who can be more annoying" Battle Royale. I reccommend unexpected nudity, awkward closeness, breathing in people's ears, and complimenting them on things that don't make sense, repeatedly. Really, once the "noggur foogits" started going, you're pretty much required to start harassing them. Who can listen to that kinda shit?

On a final note, I've found that one of the most insulting things I've ever pulled off is to affect a noob vibe, ask for some dipshit's autograph, and if they're actually dumb enough to sign one, tear it up while slowly shaking your head right after. Crushingly dick move, very funny to all onlookers though. Not one you can pull off if you don't look like you can fight, though.

Good luck with that!

Either that or just start throwing rocks or shit, who's gonna judge?


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By Brian Hudson
From Greenville, SC
Jan 28, 2013
Valor Over Discretion (5.8), RRG

Smarty Ports/Shants wrote:
Fuck positivity once some idiots start parading their psychoses about and setting shit on fire, while belaying and otherwise. The whole "we're all "climbers", it's a *"community"*" nonsense wore off with me years ago after one too many gym-tards decided to give me a speech designed to let me know how much more special and important they are because they don't engage in ______(insert ethical faux pas here). I really don't have patience for schmucks, whether they're on the idiot box (kill your tv, there's a reason I have never paid a cable bill in my life, and no I don't get it free either), perched on a pad getting philosophical to impress sallow, under-breasted would-be shart climbers (male and female, being fair here) at some testosterone-free zone at a gym, or, worst of all, up in my face at some place I would've otherwise really enjoyed the peace and quiet at. This is one of those times where you pretty much have to leave and concede defeat or start challenging them in the "who can be more annoying" Battle Royale. I reccommend unexpected nudity, awkward closeness, breathing in people's ears, and complimenting them on things that don't make sense, repeatedly. Really, once the "noggur foogits" started going, you're pretty much required to start harassing them. Who can listen to that kinda shit? On a final note, I've found that one of the most insulting things I've ever pulled off is to affect a noob vibe, ask for some dipshit's autograph, and if they're actually dumb enough to sign one, tear it up while slowly shaking your head right after. Crushingly dick move, very funny to all onlookers though. Not one you can pull off if you don't look like you can fight, though. Good luck with that! Either that or just start throwing rocks or shit, who's gonna judge?

This is all on the premise that someone reacts poorly to your advice, right? Surely you aren't forsaking everyone who's making a poor decision based on a few tards.


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By SexPanther aka Kiedis
Jan 28, 2013
Thumbtastic

Loud fuckwits and people who honestly don't know better are two different scenes. But, yeah, I've found that getting naked and uncompfortably close to strangers can really motivate some distance to occur. And the autograph routine is just priceless.

I'm one of those rare people that doesn't have the "maybe I shouldn't say something" chip in my brain. So, like the yahoos in question, my answer to Rob's quandary is that it's a no-brainer: speak up, leave, or creep the living hell out of them until they bail. Depends on your investment in peace and quiet.


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By bearbreeder
Jan 29, 2013

ahhhh ... but then you get those people running around the bluffs proclaiming loudly how dangerous you are for not using lockers on you anchors ;)

theres a big difference between saying something that is obviously dangerous ... and something that is not "how you would do it" or "best practices"

and saying it loudly for everyone to hear ... or having a quiet private word

i would personally never take my hand off the brake of a gri gri without tying it off ... nor expect my partners to ...

but i would LOVE to see the MPer on this thread who is gonna run up to Tim Emmett and tell him he is unsafely belaying Will Gadd on perhaps the hardest ice/mixed climb in the world

=P


bad belaying ;)
bad belaying ;)


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By Christian
From Casa do Cacete
Jan 29, 2013

Lol, you should have told them their belaying methods work even better with an ATC.

We should look out for our fellow climbers, but that assumes a certain level of goodwill on their part. You're not morally obligated to try to help known douchebags. If they do kill themselves, so much the better for the lives of what would have been their future victims.

I saw an old couple on Mt Lemmon and the lady was belaying her sketching-on-5.6 husband 10 feet away from the wall. I told her: Belay closer, 1. You're gonna get dragged and possibly lose control of the belay 2. The angle of the rope above you guarantees that if your husband falls, he's gonna clip it, burn his leg, then flip and smash headfirst into the wall.

They got all pissed, argued with me about every fucking thing but did move the belay. A couple of weeks later, I saw them doing the exact same idiotic 10-feet-from-the wall belay.

Didn't say a thing. I also NEVER saw them again, I'm guessing eventually gravity caught up to them and they gave up climbing after that.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 29, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

If it's someone in my own party, then I try to be diplomatic and help them understand. Try that shit with your wife. Imagine your wife belaying your buddy. You're on the ground next to her with one other friend. She has lead belayed with a Cinch a few thousand times, but it's been a while.

Me quietly: "Honey, can you keep your brake hand on?"

"My brake hand is on."

"Yeah, but you took it off to feed slack."

"Just for a second though."

"Doesn't matter, it should never come off. Besides, that's the worst possible second you could take it off."

"Fine, climb nazi."

"Great, fine. Just keep your fucking brake hand on the rope, please."

Then the rest of your day sucks ass, but no one dies or gets hurt.

If it's someone else that I don't know doing dumb shit, I used to say something. Now, after repeated attempts at gingerly telling people as tactfully as I can that they're idiots inches from death and have no idea and having them get all pissy, I just leave the area instead.


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By Unassigned User
Jan 29, 2013

That's a tough call either way - I know - because of ego's and such.

Personally - I would KINDLY and quietly pull someone aside and share with them. I feel it is every experienced (note that I say experienced here) climbers responsibility to better the sport in itself AND help others out if they can. Maybe it is because I am a RN and have this 'help everyone out that you can' mentality - which we all know can be both a good AND bad thing - b/c we know there ARE just some people out there that don't want to be helped or told what to do, don't give a shite, care, or want anyone budding in.

With that said tho - I have had other experienced climbers give me some advice too when I was doing things perhaps NOT THE BEST way I could have done them. Was my ego a little bruised? Sure! But I always try to keep in mind - ego's have little place in the world. One can learn a LOT from someone who has more experience and/or knowledge than yourself.

Look at it THIS way - if it was YOUR kid or significant other - would you NOT want someone to help? I would....could be a life saved.

If someone chooses to say 'F off' or ignores your help - then fine - at least YOU can walk away knowing that you tried to help and have a clear conscience.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jan 29, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

bearbreeder wrote:
ahhhh ... but then you get those people running around the bluffs proclaiming loudly how dangerous you are for not using lockers on you anchors ;) theres a big difference between saying something that is obviously dangerous ... and something that is not "how you would do it" or "best practices" and saying it loudly for everyone to hear ... or having a quiet private word i would personally never take my hand off the brake of a gri gri without tying it off ... nor expect my partners to ... but i would LOVE to see the MPer on this thread who is gonna run up to Tim Emmett and tell him he is unsafely belaying Will Gadd on perhaps the hardest ice/mixed climb in the world =P


The flip side of this is that you have hardmen not tying in properly and falling off indoor climbing walls. I'm sure JL (in hindsight) would have preferred someone "correct" him instead of being lamed up and having to heal for a few months. I hear what you're saying but prowess does not alleviate human error. Now, would I ever tell Tim Emmett that? Fuck no, but half the reason is that you wouldn't catch me out in that cold shit in the first place.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 29, 2013
Stoked...

Jake Jones wrote:
Me quietly: "Honey, can you keep your brake hand on?" "My brake hand is on." "Yeah, but you took it off to feed slack." "Just for a second though." "Doesn't matter, it should never come off. Besides, that's the worst possible second you could take it off." "Fine, climb nazi." "Great, fine. Just keep your fucking brake hand on the rope, please." Then the rest of your day sucks ass, but no one dies or gets hurt.


So so so so true...


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By wivanoff
Jan 29, 2013
High Exposure

Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:
how would you have started a dialogue about their terrible belaying habits? I am i Gonna watch someone die?


IF it's something dangerous, I'll introduce myself, chat it up for a bit and then say something like: "Hey, I noticed you're doing . I usually do it this way. Is there some advantage to your way?"

Depending on response, I then offer a suggestion. We might be flip about Darwinism or "thinning out the herd" but accidents at the cliff benefit no one. They only make land owners/managers nervous and then cliffs get closed.


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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Jan 29, 2013
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

when I was at the gunks this fall I was watching a guy belay his wife one handed using a grigri who was working through a crux roof while his other hand had a cellphone glued to his ear.

classy.


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