How do I narrow the sport-trad gap?

My background is sport, mostly on limestone. Now that I am in the NYC, I want to transition to trad climbing (the only stuff accessible to me here). I am only comfortable leading 5.8/5.9 at the Gunks. In other words, I am scared shitless. Recently, I redpointed a well-protected 5.12 with the thought that it would "liberate" me from my fear. Did not help. Maybe falling on gear would help, but I don't trust my gear enough. Are there any tricks?

I'm in much the same boat, trad climbing at Devil's Lake in WI. I'm approaching this by climbing more trad. Just LOTS of trad. My logic is, the more you place good gear, the faster you get at placing good gear. Then it's a matter of time before I find myself in over my head and take a good whipper. Confidence bolsters after a few whips as it does learning sport.

grab a copy and read Rock Warriors Way if you haven't already. That and practice taking progressively larger falls on gear in a safe environment. ive noticed that if you are 100% focused on the climbing there leaves little to no room to think about falling. especially on routes at or near my limit. anything short of 100% focus on climbing will result in a fall.

Go do a clean aid climb; having to place all that gear and hang on it gives you a better sense of how it works and that builds some trust in the gear. Bounce test some marginal placements with a backup piece just below. Aid also gives you some exposure to how gear shifts when weighted.

Enjoy!

A question to the OP: have you tried french-freeing the climb you RP-d or you just walked around to set a top rope? If you haven't put it up ground-up, go do that and do more. If you're not familiar with the concept, it's just like going bolt to bolt in sport climbing, but with gear instead of bolts. Weigh each piece and bounce test it as you go. I know some people may say body weight is not the same as a lead fall, but when you are hanging on a piece of gear 20-30 feet off the ground as a belayer feeds you slack to clip the next piece, you really want that piece of gear you are clipped to to be bomber.

edit: oh oops, I guess David Houston gave you the same advice...

Agree with Erik, just climb lots and lots of trad. Place as much gear as you can and clean as much gear from more competent climbers as you can. I have also heard Rock Warriors Way is helpful.

Just climb and enjoy being challenged by 5.9. That's hard enough to get you away from the worst of the crowds at the gunks and you don't have to do any of that silly training that everybody seems obsessed with.

Set up a top-rope on a trad route.

Tie a second line to your harness. Climb the route on top rope.

Place gear, clip the second line in to the gear. Finish the route.

Have your belayer set up a second belay on the practice lead line.

From a solid stance, play out some slack in the top rope line.

Have the belay switch to actively ready on the practice lead line.

Fall on your gear. Learn to trust your placements.

If you blow a piece, you still have the top rope line loose but able to be belayed.

Clean gear as you come down . Rinse and repeat.

Just work your way up through trad like you did sport, imagine you didn't start on 5.12 sport routes, trad is a totally different style and mind set of climbing, have to start learning from the ground up. Start on routes that you do feel comfortable on and work your way up from there, other people only care about the number behind the 5 if you do

Falling on your gear absolutely helps. My first serious trad fall was on a climb above my limit with a high crux. Be a wimp and place four or five bomber pieces below the crux, and fire it. Then you'll whip, the high piece will hold, and you'll trust your gear way more. You'll start protecting cruxes with fewer pieces, whip more, and realize gear works. It really does.

Thanks all! So, as a summary:
1. weigh/test my gear
2. take gear falls
3. buy some diapers

PS. probably, having a really sparse rack does not help either

Yeah, get more gear, especially cams. I saw your other thread about the Gunks rack - get more SLCDs, easier to fire when climbing is hard. Don't bother with tricams - they're not very useful unless climbing is super easy and you have your two hands free. Mock leading on top rope is not very helpful IMO, so is climbing well below your limit. Some people climb well below their limit their entire lives and place shitty gear, they don't know they place shitty gear because they never fall.

Like all not so young climbers, I learned trad since that''s all there was. I marvel at the disconnect between what people can climb when clipping bolts and what they can when placing gear. Not judging mind you. Still, here's what I think will help.

Learn to place gear well. I think aid climbing is unnecessary (and I say that having aid climbed alot). You can usually tell visually whether a piece is good. But you also need to visualize and compensate for how pieces will travel if you weight the rope and as you climb above them. People seem to think that pulling hard is the only skill you need, but placing gear is a skill of equal importance.

Back up your pieces when you have a chance.

Adopt 'the leader must not fall' attitude. Learn to work moves, downclimb, etc. Develop skill, not just strength. Learn to work through mental impasses by climbing confidently, not test falling on gear. Again, another skill not developed as much when sport climbing.

Above all, take it slow and enjoy the process.

I think Fat Dad's got the best advice here, but maybe that's a generational thing since I'm an old fart too.

Gunks 8's, 9's and 10's are the gems of the area, and it seems you are focused on your disappointment in not climbing harder when riches are spread out before you. Fuhgeddabout the 12's for the time being and work through the 8's 9's and 10's! There are some things you have to learn to climb trad competently that aren't part of a sport climber's quiver, and you shouldn't expect to learn all that while climbing at or even near your sport climbing limit. A lot of people I know lead two grades harder on sport climbs than trad climbs, so you may not be all that far off the mark even now.

I took a stab at listing some of the things one needs to work on for trad climbing at mountainproject.com/v/belay…, it might be worth a look.

If you read it, you'll note that I think redundancy is one of the ways you keep yourself in one piece when you are learning---and later on too. But redundancy requires a decent-sized rack. I think a lot of the recommendations in your thread on that topic were too lean. I'd suggest a full set of nuts, a set of brassies, double cams from micro up to green camalot, and one each of red, yellow and blue. You are already climbing at a level at which the small stuff can be a big help. Just remember a small stopper may well be better than an equivalent-sized small cam, and you should probably be doubling up if you have to use small cams, because they are the hardest for everyone to judge and the least tolerant of any deviation from an ideal placement.

Twelve alpine quickdraws (i.e. the kind that extend to full-length runners) and maybe even some extra runners over the shoulder including one double-length one. Forget the tricams for now---too fiddly and really a special purpose piece. They do have their uses, you might like 'em after you get more experience.

Here's a trick to use over the winter that can help you get better at choosing the right size cam the first time: get a cheap bench vice and use it as an adjustable crack. First you put a cam in and crank the vise down until the cam lobes are about 2/3 compressed---that's approximately an ideal placement, probably even more compressed for small cams. See what it looks like, feel the crack with your fingers so that you get a sensory clue from feeling the crack about what size cam to choose, and then test yourself by randomly setting the vise and choosing a cam to plug in.

There's still a big difference between the vise and a gunks crack, which will have all kinds of irregularities to interfere with a proper placement, so you'll still have to adjust your placements and sometimes swap a piece out for a better size, but learning the right size for a parallel-sided crack will go a long way to making you more efficient, which counts a lot on steep ground when you don't have forever to get good gear in.

If the route is set up this way, it was helpful for me starting out. Climb a "mixed" route - one that is sport bolted, but takes pro - and clip a draw, then place a piece just above it. The bolt gives the backup, but you're still climbing trad.

I had this same problem in reverse. After years of climbing nothing but trad and talking shit about sport, I was consistently climbing a grade harder trad than sport.

I wanted the strength and endurance of sport, so I did a ton of it. Sure I still climbed trad but 80% of my climbing became sport. What happened is I started sending hard (for me) sport routes and I got way more consistent and well rounded on all the trad. It really upped my alpine game but even helped in the creek.

I would expect the same but opposite for you, if you choose to put in way way more time trad than sport for the next couple years, it'll come around. Then you'll improve your sport because you'll find jams and stances on some routes that you might miss as a sporto.

Thanks again all! So far I love climbing at the Gunks. I am slowly working my way through the "to do" list. The package - the rock, the exposure, the views are awesome.

The main reason for jumping onto a 5.12 was to force myself to work a route on trad gear. The goal (for now) is to get comfortable on 5.10s and 5.11s. This way I can do the classic G/PG routes in that range. Being able to work on harder projects is a "free" bonus. Later, I'd like to try some hard(er) free multipitch/alpine routes.

Learning trad is exciting and I like it so far. I did some gear routes on granite before, but never was as involved in it.

So, my interim conclusions:
(a) rack shopping is due
(b) practice placing gear
(c) fall on gear

SXL wrote:(c) fall on gear

I don't think anyone recommended that (not that I recall) or, if they did, I don't think that's good advice for someone who's admits that they're new to placing gear. I think the suggestion was to get better at placing gear so if you do fall on it (and you will), you're good.

i would definitely recommend taking some falls onto the gear. When you can look down past your feet, see a cam, and tell yourself its as good as a bolt (and kind of believe it), you'll start climbing closer to your limit. Yes read espresso lessons or rock warrior's way to understand true danger vs. perceived danger.... knowing that it's all dangerous anyway.

and wear a freakin helmet!

"Adopt 'the leader must not fall' attitude." Is this a thread on 'how to plateau as a crusty old trad dad?" Cuz if so, this advice is fan-freakin'-tastic. Make sure you know your gear is generally good, and then climb like it's gonna hold. If you don't trust it, do all the stuff people tell you to do -aid stuff on TR, monkey around at the base testing placements, build lots of anchors etc- thereby learning to trust that the stuff works, and then climb as if you think the stuff is gonna work. You're probably going to have to whip on it. Dangerous, irresponsible advice I know, but that's how the human mind works. Repeat the scary thing until it is no longer scary. Ignoring it, wishing it away…...this doesn't work so good. You know that feeling of cruxing, praying, increasingly gripped until you finally lob off and …nothing happens, you're just hanging on the end of the rope awash in a tremendous sense of relief? It's like that. So just do it. [insert the usual disclaimer re: knowing when falling is a legitimately bad idea, and not falling then]

Fat Dad wrote: I don't think anyone recommended that (not that I recall) or, if they did, I don't think that's good advice for someone who's admits that they're new to placing gear. I think the suggestion was to get better at placing gear so if you do fall on it (and you will), you're good.

How do I work a route if I can't fall? I think if the route is well protected, the gear well placed, I should be ok falling on it. I will not take victory whippers, but if the route is hard enough, I might fall.

PS. placing gear quickly is another action point