Hoodwires with ice screws

This ice season I purchased several Hoodwires and was interested to see how they would perform. For the most part - I like them a lot: seconds can unclip from a slightly tensioned rope easier, their action when deploying from the harness is smoother, the keylock emulation works exactly as promised... all good things.

However, one problem I ran into rather consistently this winter was when clipping the upper clip-loop in my BD express screws: If I entered overhanging terrain, wanted to stack quickdraws (am I going right or left? I want both ropes to run right here, etc.), or otherwise felt like clipping the upper clip-loop was prudent I found that both getting the hoodwire in, and out, of that upper loop was a real pain - rather problematic, especially while in steep performance-level terrain.

Has anyone else experienced this? Any tips, pointers, or general thoughts?

I am interested to know what others have experienced....

Best,

Kshon

So i called BD and got their stance on the issue... but I'd like to hear of other peoples' experience first! Bheuler?

Use a different caribiner.

Curious what exactly you mean by "stacking" quickdraws and why you're doing it? Also, why did you feel it was prudent to clip the upper hole? I've got hoodwires and also like them a lot, but my BD screws are an older model without the second hole in the hanger.

will archer wrote:Curious what exactly you mean by "stacking" quickdraws and why you're doing it? Also, why did you feel it was prudent to clip the upper hole? I've got hoodwires and also like them a lot, but my BD screws are an older model without the second hole in the hanger.

Stacking = there are two holes = you clip one draw into each re: route finding, wanting both of your doubles to be clipped in the same screw for directional management.

See the attached image - a screen shot of their climbing instructions sheet for Express Screws:

Re: Clipping the upper hole - the response of "just use the lower hole" seems insufficient here - it begs the question "Then why would BD put another clip in point if we aren't supposed to use it?"

2 other uses for the upper clip-in hole are

a) managaing overhanging terrain at your exact screw placement - this helps the draw hang further from the ice structure, thus reducing your rope drag,

b) the top hole could potentially reduce leverage on the screw if you think fall forces might torque it out from its placement.

All that being said, here's what BD had to say:

1) They were unaware that the hoodwire is difficult to place and remove from the upper hole (this is because the latest model of express ice screws - the upper hole is actually slightly smaller than previous models). They now are aware of this and looking in to it.

2) They mentioned that for now, switching carabiners would probably be best ie: not using a hoodwire for the upper hole carabiner. This is because to place a hoodwire into the upper hole, you must attach the carabiner exactly perpendicular to the hole's orientation. In other words, the hoodwire must be perfectly at 90 degress to the spine of the hanger if you want it to go in smoothly/ remove smoothly. If not? It will be dicey at best to get the thing in - dicey being defined here as very difficult to clip if you are in challenging/performance level terrain - to a point where your body positioning/static balance will probably be affected and result in a loss of balance/ maybe a fall if you are not totally solid on the terrain.

So - an obscure instance, but a potentially risky one if you encounter this situation for the first time in challenging terrain - for both leader and second. Re: Seconds when they are cleaning.

This is what prompted me to switch to hoodwires to begin with. If you are belaying your second with an appropriately rather-tight belay, other wire gate carabiners will got their tooth stuck on the tensioned rope, making draw cleaning a pain while on challenging terrain (imagine cleaning your third screw placement on pitch 3 of Repentance) - you're tired, your second is tired, they have 2 more screws to clean on a tenuous hook placement from their tool - giving them slack will hinder their efforts, but so is the stuck tooth of the wiregate. SO I made the switch to hoodwires to experiment this season and encountered a snag of another kind....

Thanks for your thoughts, and if anyone else out there experiments with hoodwires in the top clip-in, please share what you find!

Best,

Kshon

The many intended uses for a BD Express Ice Screw. "Stacking" depicted in the middle,with two draws..... stacked.

As follow up: another purpose for the second hole is noted in Will Gadd's post on speed climbing - where he mentions that for quick, long alpine ascents, the anchor looks like this:

Leader gets to end of rope. Leader throws in first screw. Leader clove hitches into upper clip-in. Yells "OFF!" Leader then places a second, higher screw, and cloves into that one as well. This is your temporary anchor. You then bring your second up by belaying off of the bottom clip-in of the lower screw. Leader then drills an A-thread and places tat through the A-thread and uses this as a third piece to beef up anchor/ prepare a solid clip-in for the second to come off belay once at stance. More detail here:

Will Gadd's Speed on Ice suggestion

The problem is the size of biner nose relative to the size of the hanger hole. I have had this problem with other caribiners and other devices where inserting just the nose was important. Key locks and a few caribiners like the WC Nitro have a smaller width nose without using a hook.

I've never liked the Hoodwire because it always seemed like a lame way of reproducing the WC Helium without having to use WC's intellectual property.

Ray Pinpillage wrote:The problem is the size of biner nose relative to the size of the hanger hole. I have had this problem with other caribiners and other devices where inserting just the nose was important. Key locks and a few caribiners like the WC Nitro have a smaller width nose without using a hook. I've never liked the Hoodwire because it always seemed like a lame way of reproducing the WC Helium without having to use WC's intellectual property.

Funny you mention the WC Helium, because a friend of mine was suggesting that I try that carabiner for the upper clip-in instead. Any experience using that model?

Kevin Shon wrote: Funny you mention the WC Helium, because a friend of mine was suggesting that I try that carabiner for the upper clip-in instead. Any experience using that model?

The Heliums work great. Another possibility is the Petzl Ange

Kevin Shon wrote: Funny you mention the WC Helium, because a friend of mine was suggesting that I try that carabiner for the upper clip-in instead. Any experience using that model?

I'm not sure if you're still wondering but I can take some pictures this weekend of WC caribiners through BD screws. The nose on the Helium is narrower than the Hoodwire. Other caribiners such as the Ange (already mentioned) and DMM Sheild would work as well. Pretty much all key nose biners too.

Ray that sounds great! I have used the Ange in a rock context - a friend of mine owned some... but would love to see them/heliums in action. Sure! Please! Fire off some pictures!

Looking forward to it,

Kshon

Here is the Heliun nose as it passes through the second hole of an Express screw. Nitro's are narrower yet but have a hook, albeit low profile. Compare this with your Hoodwires. There is very little restriction when inserting the Helium and can be clipped at various angles.

Helium through Express second hole

rocknice2 wrote: The Heliums work great. Another possibility is the Petzl Ange

Thank you RocknIce2!

and Thank you Ray for the comments/ photo!

I was at Crawford Notch this weekend and also continued to play with the hoodwires on both Dracula and Standard at Frankenstein, mostly to refine a technique for efficient clipping in the upper hole. Definitely not natural, nor easy with the BD Express, but do-able. However, I think I will definitely keep an Ange or Helium or two on my ice rack now.

keep the suggestions coming!