Hangboard training duration
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So the general wisdom out there is that the hangs should be sets of fairly short hangs of 5-8 seconds. I was curious about the origination of this wisdom and whether for some things we ought to be hanging longer. |
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When you climb you're not holding each hold for 20+ seconds, sure you do it sometimes but not every one. Especially indoors. |
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Hey thanks for the response, |
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Daniel, |
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The article in the Journal of Physiology is interesting. It suggests that equal volumes of isometric training, whether performed in 1 second or 20 second intervals produces similar strength and hypertrophy gains in untrained subjects. |
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DanielRich wrote: |
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DanielRich wrote:So the general wisdom out there is that the hangs should be sets of fairly short hangs of 5-8 seconds."general wisdom"? I think it's more accurate to say that the frequently-expressed opinions of some older American climbers who have lots of time free on web forums - (perhaps along with some (un-biased?) fingerboard manufacturers) ... is for repeated 5-8 second static hangs. If you actually read a _book_ by an American climber, Eric Horst in Conditioning for Climbing says max 3-5 seconds for repeated hangs (and once he's gotten that out of the way, moves on to describe six dynamic finger-strengh methods some of which he clearly thinks are superior to static repeaters). The Self-Coached Climber book says the goal for finger strength is to build Type IIa + IIb fibers, and so recommends only dynamic training. (My understanding is that isometric training tends to build Type I fibers.) The three Euro authorities I've checked suggest (if any static training at all) a very intense hang of 5-10 seconds with like three minutes rest before attempting another -- but with the clear understanding that the main primary training should be dynamic moves. At my local gym, the posted training protocol for the Comp team for younger climbers shows no static finger hangs at all. A YouTube video of a strong young climber of her training routines shows no static hanging at all. That's the "general wisdom" as I look around nowadays. Ken P.S. I wonder if the older approach of static hanging came from Trad climbers who had a big (justifiable) fear that they'd fall while hanging statically to place pro. Nowadays I do not often see videos of sport climbers or boulderers failing on a route because they ran out of static holding endurance. |
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kenr wrote:research on isometric exercise that suggests maybe longer duration is not bad. jp.physoc.org/content/536/2… Near as I can tell, that article above is about using isometric stretching to train muscle elongation and range-of-motion, not strength. When I am training for elongation and RoM, I think of 20 seconds as short duration. Myself I often go for five minutes or more. KenKen, you may want to re-read the study, (or maybe I should!) as it seems to me they are measuring the effect of two different duration isometric exercises (performed at 70% of maximum voluntary contraction, i.e. not a "stretch") on tendon stiffness. If I understand correctly, increased stiffness is useful in some sports (dynamic jumping events, ? running) because the stiffer tendon can store more force for recoil. I don't see how that makes much difference in climbing. However, their observation that both protocols led to similar strength and hypertrophy gains may be generalizable. |
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kenr wrote: "general wisdom"? I think it's more accurate to say that the frequently-expressed opinions of some older American climbers who have lots of time free on web forums - (perhaps along with some (un-biased?) fingerboard manufacturers) ... is for repeated 5-8 second static hangs. If you actually read a _book_ by an American climber, Eric Horst in Conditioning for Climbing says max 3-5 seconds for repeated hangs (and once he's gotten that out of the way, moves on to describe six dynamic finger-strengh methods some of which he clearly thinks are superior to static repeaters). The Self-Coached Climber book says the goal for finger strength is to build Type IIa + IIb fibers, and so recommends only dynamic training. (My understanding is that isometric training tends to build Type I fibers.) The three Euro authorities I've checked suggest (if any static training at all) a very intense hang of 5-10 seconds with like three minutes rest before attempting another -- but with the clear understanding that the main primary training should be dynamic moves. At my local gym, the posted training protocl for the Comp team for younger climbers shows no static finger hangs at all. A YouTube video of a strong young climber of her training routines shows no static hanging at all. That's the "general wisdom" as I look around nowadays. Ken P.S. I wonder if the older approach of static hanging came from Trad climbers who had a big (justifiable) fear that they'd fall while hanging statically to place pro. Nowadays I do not often see videos of sport climbers or boulderers failing on a route because they ran out of static holding endurance.Ken, I just don't understand why you are so opposed to repeaters unless it's some kind of innate iconoclasm. Common sense would suggest that short max hangs as well as repeaters both are useful training tools, DEPENDING ON YOUR SPECIFIC WEAKNESSES. Trying one version for a month and seeing if it seems to help your climbing will be a lot more useful than reading all of Eric Horst's books. Or even Mono's when that comes out. Just out of curiosity, how many national champions has your local gym produced? PS For the OP- I like the book "Overcoming Gravity" for gymnastic progressions for the upper body. |
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Wow guys thanks for the great replies. I haven't spent much time on this forum but I have on other internet forums and the discussion level here exceeded my expectations. |
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kenr wrote: "general wisdom"? I think it's more accurate to say that the frequently-expressed opinions of some older American climbers who have lots of time free on web forums - (perhaps along with some (un-biased?) fingerboard manufacturers) ... is for repeated 5-8 second static hangs. If you actually read a _book_ by an American climber, Eric Horst in Conditioning for Climbing says max 3-5 seconds for repeated hangs (and once he's gotten that out of the way, moves on to describe six dynamic finger-strengh methods some of which he clearly thinks are superior to static repeaters).You make it out like Horst ONLY advocates shorter hangs, but in Training for Climbing (1st edition, not sure about 2nd) he suggests repeaters with 10 second repetitions. And speaking of unbiased...I have a VERY difficult time taking Horst seriously as his books are riddled with plugs for his own line of products (Nicros). kenr wrote: The Self-Coached Climber book says the goal for finger strength is to build Type IIa + IIb fibers, and so recommends only dynamic training."recommends only dynamic training"? Really? I don't recall reading that at all and I can't imagine Hunter making a blanket statement like that. kenr wrote: Nowadays I do not often see videos of sport climbers or boulderers failing on a route because they ran out of static holding endurance.I think this is because videos of sport climbers or boulderers that CAN'T do the moves are extremely uncommon. Who posts videos of trying and failing to pull onto the starting holds fifty times? That would make for some terrifically uninspiring footage. Instead, you generally see footage of climbers that are at least close to achieving the ascent. |
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JLP wrote: Ken - would love to hear about some sick sends all the bullshit you've posted here has allowed you to accomplish. All I see in your profile are ass-easy beginner routes.I wouldn't be so quick dismiss someone because they don't post all of their sends on MP. Not everyone, including yourself feels the need to log everything into MP so they can have someone else look at their profile and say, "Look you don't know shit about shit because your hardest send on MP is a 5.10." |
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couple quick comments. i kind of cringe when i read some of these studies and realize within about 15 seconds that the entire comparison is completely flawed. it is amazing that they are reviewed, and actually get published. |
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VaGenius wrote:Just wanted to add that I took a look at Mark's blog and really enjoyed it. It's been a long time since training for climbing has been a central thing for me, it's pretty great seeing how you've integrated a lot of focused intensity, made a lot of goals happen, and from the looks of it, been there for the family on a consistent basis also. Thanks for the inspiration. Doing some goal setting for next year and plan on putting some stuff I gleaned from your posts to work. Respect.That's Mark Anderson's blog, lazyhclimbingclub.wordpress… I'm strictly a training amateur, albeit another Mark. I like his blog too. |
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take this fwiw but I had a hangboard cycle before the start of a long trip where I almost exclusively hangboarded. I did 3 sets of max hangs 8-12 seconds long with 3 minute breaks in between. A few easy warmup sets. Sometimes I did this workout 3 days in a row (always trying to progress adding weight or adding seconds). If say on the third day in a row I did not add weight or seconds, then I took a day or two off and started again. This lasted about a month. The result is I added 15lb and 4 seconds to my last hangs compared to my last hangboard cycle last sets (does that make sense?). I also visibly grew my forearm muscles (I wish I had taken measurements, they are visibly larger now). |
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5.samadhi wrote:take this fwiw but I had a hangboard cycle before the start of a long trip where I almost exclusively hangboarded. I did 3 sets of max hangs 8-12 seconds long with 3 minute breaks in between. A few easy warmup sets. Sometimes I did this workout 3 days in a row (always trying to progress adding weight or adding seconds). If say on the third day in a row I did not add weight or seconds, then I took a day or two off and started again. This lasted about a month. The result is I added 15lb and 4 seconds to my last hangs compared to my last hangboard cycle last sets (does that make sense?). I also visibly grew my forearm muscles (I wish I had taken measurements, they are visibly larger now). You dont need super long hangs or super long workouts! In/out, consistency, # of times exposed to workout = hypertrophy in my limited experience.What's the result? How did you perform on the road trip? |
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divnamite wrote: What's the result? How did you perform on the road trip?Hey man, I will tell you in 6 months when I get to Colorado (final destination/new home). I just started said trip Jan 1. I havent been on a bouldering trip (more than a daytrip!) in 9 years. So I hope to be able to match what I did 9 years ago when I was 21 and seriously training. That would be solid v7-v8 so we shall see! :D |