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Hang Dogging and Downgrading

Original Post
JohnnyD · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0

So why is it that on mountain project everyone downgrades everything? Or posts the route as being "soft" rather than actually describing the route? Does it make you cool on mountain project if you downgrade everything?

Also I've seen people hang dog the heck out of a route only to down grade it!!! Does that make any sense!? There are people who downgrade routes they have never redpointed and prob never will, I just don't get the hang dogging downgrading mentality? Please help and explain.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

5.13b bro, you wouldnt get it

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

JohnnyD....

Ha, you to? When I see folks doggin then spraying about how easy some climb was/is...

I always point out the fact to them that, "You didn't do the climb dude, sorry"

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I for one think it's great that this issue is so dear to you that you went so far as to create an account today just to post this thread about it.

Can I ask what the tipping point was for you? Let's hear the deets, sir. The deets!

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

some routes are easier, but i think more and more its a result of projecting routes and developing that muscle memory which makes the perception of the route easier sometimes.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I don't usually look too much at the consensus grades, but I do look at the ratings certain people give routes. Tony B, for example, is pretty consistent. I just add a letter or two to whatever he says and that's what I expect it to feel like for me!
If it's just an AC I don't even bother with it.

J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,926
JohnnyD wrote: Please help and explain.
I never noticed this when I lived in CA, but here in Boulder, it seems to be the way the cool kids role. Its really more sad than anything else, so just try to ignore/pity them.
Garret Nuzzo Jones · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 1,436
s.price wrote:Grades on routes frequently drop with time as the beta becomes more clear, as in chalked up. For the person who established the line the trip into the unknown seems to always make the moves or route seem harder.
I think it really depends on the type of climb. I feel like a lot of the trad lines can get harder over time. Some sport lines too. That lovely granite crack was probably like climbing on sandpaper the first time, now it's glass smooth. That chickenhead was a great place to stand on...for the first ten thousand feet that touched it. Limestone routes always seem to be victims of their own quality. If it's a four star 5.8 it's almost guaranteed to be greasier than a bowl of KFC.
5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40

Notice the people downgrading are typically downgrading a route in the climbing style that they are particularly strong in.

Martin Harris · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 200

If ppl downgrade after a top rope my friends and I quickly respond "everything is 5.9 on top rope" followed by sandbagging them into something safe but hard to lead.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0
So why is it that on mountain project everyone downgrades everything?

The same reason everyone loves/hates everything.
clay meier · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 350

Did someone downgrade your "sick proj"?

England · · Colorado Springs · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 270

trollin, trollin, trollin!

Brian · · North Kingstown, RI · Joined Sep 2001 · Points: 804

Simple, some routes are legitimately soft. The FA rated it harder to pump up their ego on, as someone put it, their “sick proj.” Lots of grade creep especially on sport routes.

5.samadhi Süñyātá · · asheville · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 40

climb at Hueco Tanks for a winter and then you will know for sure what V4, V5, V6 (etc) is.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10

no tan lines there!

Jack Sparrow · · denver, co · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 1,560

I'm with you Johnny i'm sick of the downgrading, its just an ego stroke for most. I always take whats in the guide book. If a route feels easy for the grade more power to you maybe it just fits your style better than other routes. If you put Sharma on a slab rated 14c it would probably feel pretty hard cause its not his style. But take an overhanging route of the same grade it might feel significantly easier than the slab. Does that make the 2nd route easier because hes better at that style. Not in my opinion but its up for debate.
Gotta say i'm impressed with the responses thought everyone would be arguing for the downgrades.I guess the boulder climbing community hasn't checked in yet.

Marek Sapkovski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 65
Colin R wrote: Or the Gunks/Daks Crowd for that matter.
Seems like bragging about the stiff grades and how softly other areas are graded is the Gunks local sport. It gets to the point of stupidity, along the lines of "climb X is not a 5.5, it's like a 5.4". Discussions about how low should The Dangler be graded (it's like a 10-foot V0 problem 150 feet up) can last for hours.

In some cases downgrading established routes is fully justified. Also, in some cases upgrading established routes is justified. A piece of rock could break off, the FA party could have been wrong (yes, that does happen), footholds/handholds get polished/comfortized with time etc.

The reason for a grading system system in climbing goes beyond bragging rights - it is also an issue of safety (especially on multi-pitch routes, trad or high-ball boulder problems). Which means that the grades should be consistent, not "hard" or "soft". However, all to frequently, downgrading existing routes (or sandbagging new routes) is just another ego booster - look at me, I sent (or worse, top-roped) this real hard route and it even felt easy for me.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280
David Sahalie wrote:Unspoken rule: If a girl can do it, it is 'always' easier than the original grade.
That's not from Stone Nudes calendar, is it?

As for 'dogging it,,I struggled on top rope up my first 5.10b in a long time last week, and I enjoyed it. Even if I hung, pulled, and sat on my belayer for a rest, I got to try the moves and made it past my previous high point. I know I'll like it better the next time, and try to do it clean with no falls too. I've never been a number chaser ever. So hangdogging doesn't bother me at all.
Syd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
David Sahalie wrote:Unspoken rule: If a girl can do it, it is 'always' easier than the original grade.
;-) You'd be hung, drawn and quartered by the lazy, idiotic administrator if you said that on climbing.com
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I don't see how it would be possible for anyone to hangdog a route, then feel qualified to contribute a rating at all. You can only really feel the true difficulty of a route if you climb it all the way through with no cheats. So for the cases where it's some guy spraying about grades after spending two hours aiding up the thing, it's probably best to just ignore them.

Personally, when I have to aid up something and am asked my opinion, I like to upgrade it.

Makes me feel better.

In cases where people who can actually climb the route are consistently downgrading it, then the consensus grade is reflected accordingly. Eventually.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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