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Gym closures for comps
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By slim
Administrator
Jan 20, 2011
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
Tyler Scheer wrote:
It's nice that there is such a large, vocal audience to agree with itself when complaining about something as trivial as your gym being closed for a few days. Do you cry this much when you're inconvenienced by roadwork? So this gym decides to host a regional comp for kids, and you can't let off a little steam after work? Man, your life just got really crappy, really fast. This kind of thing is normal for smaller gyms, with limited setting staff. Your options are to either not have a comp, and cut a great experience out of the climbing life of these kids, or to have to suffer through a few days without your fingers on some holds. Get over yourselves. Pools shut down for maintenance, weight gyms close for upkeep, tennis centers get shut down for tournaments. If you can't entertain yourself for a few days without climbing, then I feel pretty sorry for you.


so if you were renting an apartment for a month, and they didn't let you in for a week for maintenance reasons, wouldn't you expect some sort of compensation? or say you rented a car for a week, and they nabbed it for 2 days to tow a float in the maycees parade, wouldn't you want the bill 'adjusted'?

its a nice gesture to say 'hey they are doing it for the kids', but i don't pay a membership fee to 'do it for the kids'. i pay a membership fee to be able to use the facilities on a regular basis during agreed upon hours.

also gotta note that andrew gram's post was pretty much gold standard material.

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By Skinny DeVille
From Dirty South
Jan 21, 2011
I blame the competition, or a lack thereof...

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By IsaacWill
Jan 21, 2011
I just want to thank Rocksport for hosting a great competition. Other business-minded gyms in Northern California aren't willing to host these comps because of the amount of time, energy, and effort required. As Dustin stated, USAC has loads of requirements and they don't consider gym members at all. I guess that is why all of the extremely successful gyms in the Bay Area don't host comps or only host their own series. I personally appreciate any gym that is willing to take the hit and host one of these comps, especially one as successfully executed as this one.

This comp wasn't perfect, in fact it was far from it. However, as the first regional comp Rocksport has hosted in a handful (at least) of years it was done very well. The setting was some of the best I've seen. The logistics and organization could be improved upon and I'm assuming they will be. In any case, thanks to Rocksport and the members of Rocksport for making this happen, these comps continue to ensure the future of our sport.

Isaac Williams
Twisters Rock Gym
Manager/Head Coach/Level 2 Routesetter

PS To the OP...The weather was absolutely beautiful last weekend, you would be hard pressed to find better outdoor climbing weather.

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Jan 21, 2011
Zeke wrote:
Thanks, that is exactly why I climbed outside on the weekend on level 5 routesetting. It was the four days preceding the comp while working a fifty hour week when I came off my workday to strangely dark, one would almost say "nighttime" conditions that was the problem. I'm glad the comp was a success though.


Was it certified level 5 routesetting? Level 5 is the shit.

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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Jan 21, 2011
Colonel Mustard
P LaDouche wrote:
Was it certified level 5 routesetting? Level 5 is the shit.


Damn you, Douche! I thought better of posting this... but you didn't. THat's why you always quote, kids.

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By slim
Administrator
Jan 21, 2011
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
I think it is funny that people who work at a gym often forget that the typical working stiff might not have a schedule that allows them to climb during the day, or perhaps even on a weekend. That is kind of the whole point of paying for a gym membership in the first place...

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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Jan 21, 2011
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.
IsaacWill wrote:
these comps continue to ensure the future of our sport.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

If anything, these comps are ruining our sport. Unless by "our sport" you mean "competing inside on plastic", and not "rock climbing".

Where would "our sport" be without iconic figures like Tori Allen??

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By thomas ellis
From abq
Jan 21, 2011
Mint jullop
I have to say, Dustin and Kate, you sound like some pretty childish people. Rather than just taking it on the chin, you decide to come here and respond like conceited assholes.
I don't climb in gyms a lot but many of my friends do and they highly depend on it for their sanity as well as fitness.
To the second gym owner (Issac Williams) and to both of you, the weather comment! You proved with this more than anything what total twats you are. Not everyone has total freedom during any given day. You are Asses.

Tom

PS: setting for your own kid is super bullshit. You know you were biased on hold spacing and movement. Not bashing her. Bashing you. Like some one said "Bad little league parents"

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jan 21, 2011
tanuki
thomas ellis wrote:
I have to say, Dustin and Kate, you sound like some pretty childish people. Rather than just taking it on the chin, you decide to come here and respond like conceited assholes. I don't climb in gyms a lot but many of my friends do and they highly depend on it for their sanity as well as fitness. To the second gym owner (Issac Williams) and to both of you, the weather comment! You proved with this more than anything what total twats you are. Not everyone has total freedom during any given day. You are Asses. Tom PS: setting for your own kid is super bullshit. You know you were biased on hold spacing and movement. Not bashing her. Bashing you. Like some one said "Bad little league parents"



The wording on this is much harsher than what I would have used, but the bolded sections captures the gist of my opinion on this issue.

I have no dog in this fight, but think that they gym in question has blown a great opportunity to create a dialogue with its customer base. Instead, they came out swinging with a bitchy tone and personal insults, implied threats and an invitation to leave if they did not like it ("I would prefer that everyone that made negative comments about the staff to come in for a refund and we hope to never see you in the gym again, good riddance to bad rubbish.")

Businesses survive because of customers. When you lose sight of this, focus exclusively on internal metrics and begin to see the customer as an adversary, you can be sure that you are losing business. No one cares about your route setting cert, the fact that you slept on the floor, that sales have gone up during your tenure, that you are doing the best that you can, your years of experience in the industry, that you lose money during comps, etc. They just want regular access to a well maintained facility with good routes and a polite staff. All of the stuff you mentioned may support that, but it is not what is important. Customer satisfaction should be the end goal.

It seems that the gym in question is missing the point in a big way.

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By tallguy
Jan 21, 2011
Specific comments on route setting for Rocksport route setters, from a longtime member.. said gently I hope. I am not complaining, only offering consructive criticism..

Please pay the money to change routes more frequently. Find a way, any way to do this. There are sometimes routes that are over 5 months old up on the lead wall, and when you have maybe a dozen lead routes, this gets ridiculous.

Certifications for route settings don't mean much in my book, lots of routes seem to be set at RS that are kind of bad, compared to routes I have climbed in other gyms. For example, many routes at RS seem to have their hardest move be some sort of long reach. This approach is kind of lame, and is not approachable by the many different body types typical of gym members. Women in particular don't seem to find the RS routes very friendly. This is greatly exacerbated by the fact that RS uses no extraneous holds on routes, thus there are no extra hands or feet to find an alternative path through cruxes for people of different body types. Getting some "extra" hands and feet up on a route also brings some decision making skills into the routes, a skill not well addressed by RS routes.

This might be because RS setters seem to be mostly boulderers.. all they know is the big throw. Diversity in route setter experience might make for a better mix of routes. Try and incorporate more types of climbing technique into the routes.

Also, don't make your clipping holds the worst hold on the routes. More than once, I have felt that the most desperate move I did on a RS route was getting the clip, its a little wierd when you feel the parts of the route between the clips were casual, but you almost fell off twice with a loop of slack in your hand as the clipping hold was some sort of weird sloping pinch angled the wrong way.


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By slim
Administrator
Jan 21, 2011
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.
shortguy, you OBVIOUSLY don't understand that these concepts aren't learned until the Level 3 certification... :)

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By bearbreeder
Jan 21, 2011
i once remember a business that had the sign "if we don't take care of our customers, someone else will" ...

sometimes it pays to remember who pays the bills ....

or maybe that town just has no other gyms ... hmmmmm

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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 21, 2011
The West Desert...it's not just for climbing, suckers! <br /> <br />Photo by Samantha
I'm always amazed at how many people in this world work in jobs that are 100% dependent on providing quality customer service and yet they have zero concept, training, or experience of what that is except when customers act exactly the way they want them to.

The managers of Rocksport have really disgraced themselves on here. Sadly, this is not the first story I have heard of this happening with other customers (face to face as well, so they don't discriminate). Certainly you can never make everyone happy all the time but this does not mean one should send their PR into the toilet. I feel entitled to say this because I worked for years in a highly customer service-dependent industry.

I don't go to the gym much; however, I do like and have enjoyed some promotions that the gym has done in the past. In my limited experience, I have found the front desk people to be friendly and outgoing. I have found the route setting to be a mix of very good, mediocre, to pretty poor (the ratio of each seems to change over time). I have generally been way more impressed with the route setting, route turnover time, facilities, and gym service in other cities I have lived.

Around 10-12 years ago, a family member of mine tried to get an investor to finance a new gym in the Reno area, but unfortunately it didn't work out at the time. Eventually, the day will come when Rocksport will have competition... and I think their sales will reflect accordingly.


"Being on par in terms of price and quality only gets you into the game. Service wins the game."
TONY ALESSANDRA

"In business you get what you want by giving other people what they want."
ALICE MACDOUGALL


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By Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Jan 21, 2011
Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on stage
Paul Heppner wrote:
(we can find you!).


mod -1 (creepy)

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By Kenny Thompson
From woodfords, california
Jan 21, 2011
gorge
How about closing all the gyms for good.

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By J.J
Jan 21, 2011
I'm just going to throw this out there. What if Dustin and Kate aren't the rock gym managers and just random internet trolls?!!!!

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By GuideDave
Jan 21, 2011
Very entertaining stuff! I happen to be in the service industry and I recently learned the "big" lesson of what happens when you don't listen to your clients/customers...

To the managerial staff at Rock Sport (if you are still reading this forum), I encourage you to be a bit more professional with your client base (in-person or on-line); in the end they pay your salary. Many of the postings had valid concerns that are shared by a large portion of your client base. Being a member of Rock Sport, and friends with a large portion of your members, I can vouch for this. If you take the time to read behind the frustrated words you will find information that might help you boost business and make your customers happier. Unfortunately, this will require you to swallow some pride, and step off the pedestal that you have created for yourself. I speak as someone who just recently had to swallow a bunch of ego in order to keep his clients happy. It's not flavorful, but in the end it helps business. I also can tell you that many members don't enjoy coming to the gym because of the small gym atmosphere, but because they have no other option. You have no competition in Reno, and until a new rock gym opens you can continue to conduct business as usual; climbers will still come to Rock Sport for their indoor climbing fix.

To the angry climbers, I support you for voicing your opinions! Most others share your frustrations about the Indoor Climbing situation in Reno. I encourage you to consider the quality of the facility you are voicing your concerns about. The gym is very old and literally "falling" apart; on many days there is a constant cloud of dust on the gym floor. The actual floor of the gym is another issue all together. Tape marking routes that falls off hardly ever gets replaced. After a comp, there is often a large amount of unattended route setting equipment that sits on the gym floor for days, right in the middle of the belay area; loose screws everywhere for careless climbers to trip on (ie: this past week). Any gym where you can lead climb and lead belay without some kind of "test" says everything about the safety mentality of the staff. I know, this last point is convenient for many climbers, but in the end it's dangerous for all. When I walk on the gym floor my adrenaline always goes up because I never know what's going to happen; I am often paranoid about something falling from the "sky" and hitting me (maybe I have PTSD from my time in the service or maybe it's because every time I go to Rock Sport I can count near misses on two hands). You're dealing with a management that either does not care about the safety of the activity being conducted in their facility and the safety of their customers, or is grossly uneducated about it. If the staff doesn't care about your safety, they probably don't care about your happiness either. Finally, the owner is not a rock climber and probably doesn't have a good feel at all for the pulse of his customers; it's left to the manager to make that link, and based on the responses to your postings we know where we stand with that. In the end, until a competitor moves into the area, or unless there is a major shift in the mentality of the staff, you will be paying a membership fee for a fairly mediocre service. The only comfort I can give you is that you are not alone!

To Mark, the owner of Rock Sport, if you happen to read this forum, I hope you have a better understanding of the professional mentality of your staff. If I were you I would have a serious talk with them. I also hope that you are better aware of the frustrations of your customers; maybe some apologies and refunds are in order. From a professional stand-point, coming from a certified rock climbing guide and climbing instructor, I believe you are very lucky that a major climbing incident hasn't occurred at Rock Sport on your watch. I know there are rumors of great "concrete" changes potentially happening for Rock Sport in this new year. Please remember that no matter how much new hardware you can provide, it doesn't mean much unless you have the right people to manage it for you. "Safety first" is the motto of the industry you are in; if you don't know how to provide that, get educated!

To any individual or corporation with the funds and interest to open a rock climbing gym, if you are reading this forum, you are now very aware that Reno would be a great venue to open a new facility; only one competitor with a very low standard of care for its customers and a very large population of climbers starving for a gym which will provide a better product. The biggest little city in the world is waiting for you!

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By P LaDouche
From CO
Jan 22, 2011
JJ Brunner wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there. What if Dustin and Kate aren't the rock gym managers and just random internet trolls?!!!!


I was thinking the same thing, her post being the more realistic one besides the whole Nationally Certified Level II Setter (in caps). I'm going for 50/50 odds.

I've belonged to 3-4 gyms that always went out of their way to give their members something to climb while prepping for a comp and have never seen any of them close for more than one day(2 including the comp). I'd be pissed off too.

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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 22, 2011
The West Desert...it's not just for climbing, suckers! <br /> <br />Photo by Samantha
JJ Brunner wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there. What if Dustin and Kate aren't the rock gym managers and just random internet trolls?!!!!

They are absolutely not trolls.

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By CascadeKid
Jan 22, 2011
SKI wrote:
Hey Scott! Dude, you got some serious Level II Certified anger dude, what's with the email? "Dustin Sabo at Mountain Project to me show details Jan 18 (1 day ago) Images are not displayed. Display images below - Always display images from postmaster@mountainproject.com You SUCK!!! Yes I honestly think you totally SUCK!! You are the worst kind of person. How about you stop hiding in the shadows and come chat with me on the subject! I would love the opportunity to express how I truly feel strait to your face. " P.S. A "strait" is a narrow passageway connecting two bodies of water. Maybe you meant straight? "(if you don't know what that means you might want to educate yourself before you sound like a moron)." We'll chat bud- and it's going to start with me bringing this email in to Rocksport. WE ARE YOUR CLOSE-KNIT CLIMBING COMMUNITY. Take what people here are saying and recommend changes. Letting this fall on deaf ears will ruin you man- and spurning the rest of us, your community, isn't going to help either. Especially here in the Biggest Little City.


ooh, ooh, what's the fallout SKI....

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By Skinny DeVille
From Dirty South
Jan 22, 2011
Agreed - I am intrigued by what the response was by RS Staff and Management after he confronted them! What happened?!?!?!

Did they refund you and send you packing as they stated?

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By Kevin Craig
Jan 23, 2011
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
IsaacWill wrote:
I personally appreciate any gym that is willing to take the hit and host one of these comps, especially one as successfully executed as this one.


Ummmm... What "hit" is the gym taking? They're keeping their members' money and shutting the gym down for several days. It is the MEMBERS who are taking the hit. Involuntarily I might add.

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By J.J
Jan 23, 2011
Aerili wrote:
They are absolutely not trolls.

Where's your logic?!

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By drpw
Jan 23, 2011
I've since changed my mind about Rock Sport. While I'll never pay money to go to the gym, I wholeheartedly support the two giant middle fingers they've raised to the Reno climbing community in general. It really is bad ass, "any naysayers should come in and we'll refund you". Awesome.

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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Jan 23, 2011
Rewritten
I remember working for a small business that had an internet forum dedicated to discussing our product. Occasionally, customers would post to complain and they would not always use the nicest language. Although it can sometimes be frustrating to read through such comments, they were actually a great, free resource for improving our product.
If a customer says a certain feature "sucks," you have to ignore the tone of the statement and see if in fact that feature could be improved. If you disagree with their assessment because they are perhaps misusing the feature, then you have to accept that that shows there is something wrong with your documentation or communication or ease of use.
Reacting to criticism by essential telling your customers to fuck off gains the business nothing. I would be amazed if the gym owner found out about these posts and did not have his employees write an apology. The overwhelming consensus is that they were rude, childish, and unprofessional, and I am glad that I don't live in Reno and have the choice to not use their facility.
I remember living in a different city that had an old rock gym that had awful customer service. Everyone tolerated it because it was the only gym in the area. When a new gym finally opened up, the old gym lost most of its customer base within a few months.

As for the original complaint and the response, I think the complaint is legitimate. Closing for 4 days seems excessive, regardless of what the weather may have been like. However, it could be understandable for a small gym.
Had the manager stated that she was sorry for the inconvenience, but that the gym lacked the resources to set faster, then the response from the community would probably have been more sympathetic. Further she could have pointed out that the competition and resulting closure was posted and advertised well in advance, and customers were warned prior to buying a monthly pass. If that was not the case, then she should have apologized for the oversight and offered to somehow make things right.
Kate wrote "I want to take a moment in closing to state again that I am glad to have this discussion! "
But Kate (and more so Dustin) did not participate in any discussion. Telling anyone who complains to fuck off is not a discussion.

"All my setters are burnt out after ABS and SCS but it's only sport climbers that complain during BOTH SEASONS,(...a running joke amongst the staff, so thanks for proving the point this season!). "

Why would someone running in indoor climbing gym go out of their way to insult sport climbers? I imagine sport climbers make up a large percentage of their customers.
Then Dustin writes (full of spelling errors as quoted, after calling others morons)
" If your angry that we closed for a comp or that you think that we set too slow or whatever else you may think I just want you to know we are doing are best and we will continue to do what we do."

Which basically means "if you have any complaint, fuck you, we aren't going to change anything." Why on earth would anyone in business write anything like that?

So what is a constructive discussion?
Angry customer: "Your routes fucking suck..."
Gym worker: "Could you please be more specific and suggest how we could improve our routes?"
Then maybe you might get constructive criticism describing specific shortcomings that could be addressed.

FLAG


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