Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Gunks MUA camping ticket - help?
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 7.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
By Emmett Lyman
From Washington, DC
Oct 16, 2012
Personal photo

Hey all,

Did something really stupid the other week. My GF and I got into New Paltz pretty late Friday and couldn't find an empty spot in the MUA. So I decided we'd just find a spot with 3 or fewer tents to stay below the 9 person/site limit. We came across one pretty far back with 3 2-person tents and a little campfire burning. We asked if there was room for us, and they said sure and pointed us to a nice empty "site". Well, we awoke in the morning to the ranger's fury. I didn't even think to double check the trees for a designated campsite marker the night before - just assumed these guys were in a designated area. Complete face palm.

Anyhow, he issued me a ticket. But here's the weird thing - it's a traffic ticket. And he said if I fail to pay my license will be suspended. WTF? Now I'm worried if I just plead guilty and pay the fine my car insurance will go up. Anyone know what the deal with these tickets is? I don't have much of a leg to stand on - I knew the rules and still camped off-limits. But I can't think of any reason why this is tied to a traffic offense. It's also kind of BS that there's no fine on the ticket - he said if I plead guilty then the judge will decide how much the fine should be afterward... somewhere between $20 and $250. That seems pretty messed up.

Thanks!
Emmett


FLAG
By wonderwoman
Oct 17, 2012
Wonderwoman on CCK

Maybe it would be dealt with like a parking violation rather than a moving violation. Have you asked on gunks.com? gunks.com/ubbthreads7/ubbthreads.php


FLAG
By doze
From Denver, CO
Oct 17, 2012
the monkey van

Usually insurance points do not apply to non-moving traffic violations such as parking, etc.

Thanks for heads up


FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Oct 17, 2012
Stoked...

those other clowns get a ticket too? or were they gone at that point? For that I would plead not guilty and show up for the court date... then finish it off with some time at the cliffs. I've always had a judge knock shit down if not just make you donate some funds to wipe the ticket away. Donations to police charities usually can get a ticket torn up quickly. If you just plead guilty they will likely throw u a huge fine cause you're just a name on a ticket and to them a source of revenue.


FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Oct 17, 2012
El Chorro

Yea don't plead guilty. In most municipalities, there will be an afternoon every week where the DA will hear your case and usually reduce the charge. You'll have to go on the specific day and stand in line for an hour or so - and you'll only get to have about a minute to make your argument, but it usually helps. If you're not sure about your car insurance, just call your agent.


FLAG
By Chris Irwin
From Silver Spring, Maryland
Oct 31, 2012

i got the same ticket. the letter said my driving privileges would be revoked in NY state.

Ranger told me it would be about $25. I pled guilty and got the fine in the mail. It was a $25 fine plus a $75 surcharge. fml.

not sure if pleading not-guilty is worth driving up there for a court date. but be warned.

-c


FLAG
By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Oct 31, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

Same thing happened. We parked the first night on the side of the road and slept next to the car. Cops showed up, told Em me and my buddy were medics they said have a good night. Next night we did the dec campground and got the same ticket you did. Super lame.

But... Rangers an ice climber or something

Just plead guilty. Lame.


FLAG
By CJC
Oct 31, 2012

expensive way to find out you can't always milk that medic thing huh


FLAG
By RockyMtnTed
Oct 31, 2012

Medic741 wrote:
Same thing happened. We parked the first night on the side of the road and slept next to the car. Cops showed up, told Em me and my buddy were medics they said have a good night. Next night we did the dec campground and got the same ticket you did. Super lame. But... Rangers an ice climber or something Just plead guilty. Lame.


Oh wow a medic, let us all bow down to you!


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 1, 2012
Rumney

It's getting rather "unfriendly" in the Gunks. The preserve guards are there earlier than ever each day, earlier in the season, and later in the season (and if you ask, it isn't about the moeny - they're there to help you find the trailhead you're already at - duh!). They've made it as difficult as they can to camp ticket free at the PUBLIC (state owned/operated/managed) camping area. Raising fees annually. Increased instances of ticketing. It's almost as if they're trying to drive people (specifically climbers) away.

I won't lie - it leaves a slightly sour taste in my mouth.

The vapor campground that may never be contructed is not opened and I have not heard ANY time tables for it to be built/opened. Originally I thought the justification for locking down the multipurpose area was in anticipation of having more camping options available(?). Zero options have been introduced. The climbing scene is getting bigger and yet they shrink the overnight options. WTF?

And don't for a second feel sorry for any law enforcement officer or preserve personnel who enforce these things. They all get paid to enforce these asshole rules. Their involvement is entirely self interested (paycheck).


FLAG
By lucander
From Stone Ridge, NY
Nov 1, 2012
Lucander off the GT Ledge on p. 2 of Keep on Struttin.

Everyone is out to get you.


FLAG
By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Nov 1, 2012
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3

just get your lisence suspended in NY. who cares.


FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nov 1, 2012
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

I got two speeding tickets in New York state back in the 80s and never paid them.

Suckstonohaveitcomputerizedassholes!!!!1111

Yeah, that camping ticket sounds kind of heavy handed and not entirely easy to determine if you are pitching your tent in the right place or not. I don't think I'll ever camp there anyway, but thanks for the heads up.


FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Nov 3, 2012

The MUA has had a reputation for "don't camp in wrong spot" for years.

The crackdown on parking alongside the road occurred this year due to community pressure. Sorry, Kevin, but the Mohonk Rangers are not asking the DEC ranger to be a dick so they can drive people away; he is simply enforcing the law which his job requires of him. No doubt he would prefer to give tickets to people who don't take the time to read the site guidelines(or ignore them) than risk having his butt handed to him for not doing his job.

As for the new campground, while it is about as slow-going a process as there is, it does look like the thing is going to go soon. Request for Bids is planned to be made soon, possibly this month, with construction hoped to begin next spring.

For those who haven't heard, there is a new Hostel opened up. Obviously the in-town hostel is quite convenient as well, this one is out on Springtown Road. I think a good site for those who are climbing Bonticou or Rosendale Water Works bouldering bunksinthegunks.blogspot.com/

As for free camping.... once the campground is open, the MUA and Slime are going to be closed. This new campground is brought to us in part by the American Alpine Club, and AAC members will have reduced rates. It is going to be a nice campground, with showers, some drive up spots and some walk in spots, a covered pavillion for cooking and such in rain, and a central firepit(which will definitely help with a reduction of loud after quiet hours are on, plus a reduction in idiots pulling limbs off live trees to burn.


FLAG
By GMBurns
Nov 3, 2012
Climbing at Morro Anhangava in Southern Brasil. <br /> <br />(photo by Isa Vellozo)

Stich wrote:
I got two speeding tickets in New York state back in the 80s and never paid them.


you can't do that in a lot of states these days. In order to ensure fines are paid, and in order to maintain revenue, several states now share information and these agreements allow the home state to also suspend a license, or at the very least require you to pay the fine before you can renew.

Not sure which states have agreements with which other states, but they exist.

As for the camping: I'm super bummed by the potential development to begin next spring. OK, I live in Brasil now, but man, that free camping was really great. I wonder how many New Englanders will stay in NH and head to the 'Daks as a result. Drive four hours from Boston, pay your season's pass, and pay for camping? It adds up.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 5, 2012
Rumney

Happiegrrrl wrote:
Sorry, Kevin, but the Mohonk Rangers are not asking the DEC ranger to be a dick so they can drive people away; he is simply enforcing the law which his job requires of him.


You completely missed my point - people often defend the management decisions for the entire area by pointing out that it's "not the Ranger's" fault, but when a corporate asshole steals/loses billions we place the blame on him/his company, and not the system. See the hypocrisy here? Not stating which is better or worse, just saying that we conveniently choose our interpretation of a situation for our personal reasons, not because of fact and usually not with a degree of objectivity.

We all have this thing called freewill. The Ranger likes doing what he does otherwise he wouldn't do it. As an outsider who climbs a lot at the Gunks about 4 months a year, this is what the non-brainwashed among us think of the Preserve and local DEC enforcement officials.

Once upon a time I had shit jobs. Decided I didn't like it, retooled and have a job I like. And I feel good about the work I do. I could make 3 or fifty times my paycheck doing something else but choose to do what I do so I sleep well at night, feel good about myself, and help others in the process. I wonder how many involved with the day to day operations at the Gunks and management of the surrounding areas feel good about their enforcement policies and practices. Based solely on their actions it doesn't appear that they care.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 5, 2012
Rumney

Happiegrrrl wrote:
The MUA has had a reputation for "don't camp in wrong spot" for years. The crackdown on parking alongside the road occurred this year due to community pressure.


While I agree that the roadside parking is bad, there's a disconnect on whether enforcement of the arbitrary standards they've set for camping numbers are directly related. Lots of people sleep in their vehicles, for example. Until all camping is banned from the multi use area no 'protecting the environment' argument can be made, and since there clearly isn't enough parking for the number of campers/potential camping spots it seems a little like they're baiting people to get the tickets (whether through improper tent placement or car placement). A lot of people drive up late and don't have many options (literally or financially) if the camping area is full either by number or parking. There's no overflow solution other than fuck you.

As for the new campground - I'll believe it when I see it. Two years ago was the first I heard of it. The gears move slowly, if at all.


FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nov 5, 2012
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

GMBurns wrote:
you can't do that in a lot of states these days. In order to ensure fines are paid, and in order to maintain revenue, several states now share information and these agreements allow the home state to also suspend a license, or at the very least require you to pay the fine before you can renew.


Oh, I'm aware of that. This was before ticket data was computerized. In the old days if you waited long enough and lived in another state, they simply got lost under tons of other unpaid, filed paper records and were eventually destroyed.


FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Nov 5, 2012

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
You completely missed my point

I don't believe I missed your point, Kevin. It is simply that I have a different perspective on the issue than you do, and have a better idea of what is going in in reality. You are entitled to your feelings, of course, but I think some of your stances come from an emotional basis and aren't actually based on factual evidence.

You say the DEC likes his job or he wouldn't do it.... But most likely the DEC ranger does not consider his job a shit job, and finds there is much that outweighs having to do the unpleasant tasks. Most likely he does not get a thrill out of having to listen to the BS and excuses people come up with when he has to deal with their infractions. I know that I used to give excuses at campgrounds and put the rangers in a bad position, knowing I was outright lying, but being unable to call me on the BS.

How does a ranger decide that the one out of twenty who honestly didn't know is that one? Why should they HAVE to?

The MUA has a very obvious and clear sign as to what the deal is.
As for " 'protecting the environment' argument" - the roadside parking issue was not about environment but residents going to the political members and insisting they deal with masses of vehicles on both sides of a road with very little shoulder.


Kevin, you are a person I consider a friend, but when you use words like "guard" for a trailhead person I have to feel that you have a preconceived idea that doesn't mesh with what is really there.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 5, 2012
Rumney

""As for " 'protecting the environment' argument" - the roadside parking issue was not about environment but residents going to the political members and insisting they deal with masses of vehicles on both sides of a road with very little shoulder.

Kevin, you are a person I consider a friend, but when you use words like "guard" for a trailhead person I have to feel that you have a preconceived idea that doesn't mesh with what is really there.""
______________

They still allow bikers on the roads through that area, and with 45-55MPH zones and lots of turns, I'd consider the bike activity as much a thread to people's safety as stationary cars along the sides (BOTH are issues IMO, but again pointing out that this is a matter of focusing attention where we individually find it most convenient to perpetuate/justify the opinion we've formed).

If they are not guards, and are not collecting fees and denying entry, what else are they? They've told me their primary purpose is to collect fees while standing/sitting/waiting there. Maybe you need to get your story straight with the actual people doing the guarding/collecting! ;-)

As for shit jobs - I wasn't suggesting being a park ranger was a shit job, I mentioned my personal experience with finding better work since I didn't find the terms of my employment to my satisfaction. What I was actually saying is that they LIKE enforcing those rules. It's a power trip. Someone has to do it, and they do. It takes a certain person and personality to voluntarily do that day in and day out. So I feel no pity for them, they like it and get paid to do it. They do so under no pretense and they have the choice to find other work at any time they choose.


FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Nov 5, 2012
Stoked...

i absolutely consider the ones that sit at the entrances, guards... I would even call them bouncers.


FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Nov 5, 2012

"They've told me their primary purpose is to collect fees while standing/sitting/waiting there"

Actually maybe that person needs to have a refresher course on what their job description is. Yes, one of their duties is to verify memberships/collect fees for day passes and/or annual memberships. But they are also there to assist people who would like information on the lands and act as a liason between visitors and preserve rangers and management when needed.

It is the trailhead person who helps the one who has locked their keys in the car. The trailhead person who calls a ranger when a visitor reports something inappropriate occurring on the lands.

Since I am a caretaker there, I too have similar responsibilities, although collecting fees for day passes is not one of them. I have helped people who have had creepy men harassing them, stopped a man from committing what was very likely a date-rape, waited with people til all hours waiting for the lock guy to come open their car, helped police with information and preserve coordination when a lost hiker calls 911, waited up at night for people who aren't out at dark(the preserve actually is not open 24 hours, as many believe. It states the time open on every membership card) and called rangers to help injured people. I've also opened up the kiosk to get trail maps for people, answered their questions about the lands, and plenty of other tasks.

In fact, one of my duties IS to keep watch over a specific area. And I have had to deal with people who took a bolt-cutters to locked gates, pulled down live trees so they could make campfires, lied boldface about incidents, and plenty more.

If anyone is a "guard," it would be me. I take offense that you would use a word with a negative connotation to describe it, but I have to remind myself that most of the visitors I encounter are familiar faces who often stop to chat for a few minutes before they head out. I think most of those people would consider myself, and trailhead people, as stewards for the preserve/land. Remember - I see/talk to dozens and sometimes a hundred or more people on a busy day. While I would be foolish to pretend there aren't those who see the people who work with the place in a negative light, I can guarantee you that the mindset is very much a minority view.


FLAG
By GMBurns
Nov 5, 2012
Climbing at Morro Anhangava in Southern Brasil. <br /> <br />(photo by Isa Vellozo)

Stich wrote:
Oh, I'm aware of that. This was before ticket data was computerized. In the old days if you waited long enough and lived in another state, they simply got lost under tons of other unpaid, filed paper records and were eventually destroyed.


Yeah, I was just referring to the point that it may not be that smart to do that going forward.

Regarding the "guards" issue: I never considered them guards.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 5, 2012
Rumney

Happiegrrrl wrote:
While I would be foolish to pretend there aren't those who see the people who work with the place in a negative light, I can guarantee you that the mindset is very much a minority view.


As you say, you are in the minority of those with unique custodial duties that are not directly tied to the financial aspects of the preserve (ie - fee collection). Those who we see nearly every visit, random days of the week, collecting, ARE collection agents (guards, whatever). They may serve other purposes, but their PRIMARY purpose isn't to be a steward of the land. [they also leave their posts LONG before dark, so obviously safety isn't of paramount importance since that would seem to be the time people would most need a presence for the things you mentioned] Heck, the booth at the main trapps parking area is usually empty after 2PM. They get their bulk of fees for the day, then knock off.

That's like saying a state trooper's primary purpose is to investigate crime, when it's actually largely traffic cop (especially those troopers whose post is along major highways). Did you even know they were trained investigators? Most expensive, over trained traffic cops ever. [and that's a SAD note to the discussion, as I would want there to be more stewardship and more troopers allowed to use their training instead of setting up speed traps!]

The kool aid they have you drinking must be damn sweet. It's the same defensive gunks.com pro-preserve brainwashed BS different thread. Don't pee on me and tell me it's raining. It's all about the money, always will be.


FLAG
By Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Nov 6, 2012

Kevin, it's clear to me that you have your perspective and feel very sure of it. But by your thinking, you would just as vigilantly rail against gas stations for having attendants in the booth.

Let's go with it being about collecting fees. What is wrong with a private entity, which asks for a membership or day use fee, to have an agent in place to do that task?

If the gas station had a "put your cash in this slot" way for people to pay for gas, do you think that there might be some who would gas up and go without paying for the gas?

At the preserve, there is often an upset by people who arrive and find the lot is full. Should the preserve add parking lots, so everyone can be accomodated, whether they are member, day fee payer, or not? And if one feels the answer is yes, do they not realize the costs associated with doing so, as well as adding rangers to manage the increase in incidents which will occur with an increase in users? The rangers are already stretched paper thin, and if you see their primary purpose as that of enforcers, think of how YOU have felt when participating is a carry out. You do realize that these guys have had to go in and scrape brains, intestines, dismembered limbs and more off the rocks, don't you? It's insulting, the attitude that these people are "the man."

Or would a person who is a member rather see that those who are not willing to pay that day use fee go elsewhere, and make those spaces available for those who have made the not-so-big sacrifice of a membership or day pass?

If you think that is an inconsequential number, may I suggest you sit for an hour at the Coxing trailhead on a Saturday afternoon, about 4pm and watch the cars slow down, look at the booth, and then drive back and forth down the road waiting for the person to go home. Or come at 8am, and watch the groups of people unpack their cars and head to Lost City in groups of 4,5, 6 and more.

Meetup groups tend to be using this modality of avoiding paying to use the land. They come one person per car, and often the meetup coordinator is charging those people a fee for "gear usage."

Two years ago, a HUGE Meetup group showed up at 8am. Upwards of 40 people, many visibly perturbed that they were being asked to pay day fee. The parking lot was nearly filled, at 8am, by people who had no regard whatsoever that they took up 3/4 the spots on a busy summer weekend, when the lot usually fills up by 10:30am.

You see your view, Kevin, but your view is a prejudiced one.


FLAG
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Nov 6, 2012
Rumney

Don't sensationalize this. Look at the preserve's financials (it's all on their website) and come to grips with reality.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 7.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>