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Guide's Corner: new site idea for outdoor pro's and their clients

Original Post
Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

This is an idea for the site that I've had for a while but havent seen come into fruition.

It would be great to have a place within the forum dedicated to all things related to guiding. From spi's to ifmga wizards, it could be a place where guides could swap info, compare notes, and share techniques. It could also be a place for clients and other climbers to learn more about what guides do. Right now, guiding seems to only come up on the sidelines.
What does everyone think?

Nick Wilder · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 4,098

MP is interested in better supporting guides. Ideas that we've mulled (all would be at no cost to guides, we figure this is a good thing for the sport in general):

  • A directly/listing of all guides.
  • Listing guide services in the correct area pages on MP.
  • Ability to list credentials / certifications.
  • Forums for discussions limited to guides-only. (only guides can write, everyone can read, or purely private?).

Open to other ideas.
Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

Those are all really great ideas, Nick!

Peter Horgan · · Crested Butte, CO · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 0

Alex and Nick,

I like it. I proposed an idea like this at the AMGA meeting last October. I like the idea of having a forum or channel where you could reach out to other guides for when you may be traveling to a particular zone to work on prerequisites for an upcoming course. See if any already certified guides or just other aspiring guides in the area would be willing to work on what you will be learning in your upcoming course. Thoughts?

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039

I think a guide's forum would benefit from a private "guides only" view so guides can solicit "guide beta," technical solutions, partners for professional development, conditions, etc. in private without fear of pulling back the veil too far with potential clients. Not against transparency, but would rather not have a client able to identify their guide seeking beta in a public forum if this would reduce client confidence.

I think the benefits of having guiding knowledge open to all users could be achieved by something in a user profile noting that the user is a guide when they respond in the regular forums. Of course, the problem here is veryifying that the user is actually a guide.

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Meh. Several options for this already exist and are used frequently.

There's a danger in talking about guide techniques with non-guides, it's easy to give out tools, but you can't give out judgment on how and when to use them.

Nick Wilder · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 4,098
Derek DeBruin wrote:I think the benefits of having guiding knowledge open to all users could be achieved by something in a user profile noting that the user is a guide when they respond in the regular forums. Of course, the problem here is veryifying that the user is actually a guide.
I am thinking that AMGA and others (hopefully!) have publicly available lists that we can use to verify. Probably a manual process, but we could make it pretty painless.
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

AMGA has lists of certified guides, but you don't need to be AMGA certified to be a guide.

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

"Meh. Several options for this already exist and are used frequently. "

Which ones are you referring to?

"There's a danger in talking about guide techniques with non-guides, it's easy to give out tools, but you can't give out judgment on how and when to use them."

I definitely agree. That's one reason I think "guide-only" threads might be great.

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

The info ex's and the FB groups.

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

What are info ex's? Thx.

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155
Derek DeBruin wrote:I think a guide's forum would benefit from a private "guides only" view so guides can solicit "guide beta,"
I'd like to chime in as a non-guide. It would piss me off to not be privy certain pieces of of beta or condition reports because I am a non-guide.
Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

^^^ I can see that too...private threads might be tricky, or at least maybe there could be some sort of compromise.

"AMGA has lists of certified guides, but you don't need to be AMGA certified to be a guide."

Some kind of base-line cert from one of the reputable organizations seems like an obvious qualifier.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
matt c. wrote: I'd like to chime in as a non-guide. It would piss me off to not be privy certain pieces of of beta or condition reports because I am a non-guide.
It's not that guides are trying to keep secrets per se, but there's things along the lines of what tico mentions:

"There's a danger in talking about guide techniques with non-guides, it's easy to give out tools, but you can't give out judgment on how and when to use them."

The other part of it is really a signal-to-noise ratio thing. "Guide beta" can differ pretty dramatically from "climber beta" based on a lot of considerations that go into working with clients. For example, your average climber is probably not concerned with whether there is enough visibility to go straight from short roping to lowering to a ledge that would also have enough security to allow the client to be unprotected while the guide descends. It's just not relevant info since most recreational parties would proceed to the edge unroped through the preceding 3rd/4th class and then simply rappel one at a time to the next ledge and continue on their merry way. But if there was a gigantic wasp nest under the tree that comprised the rappel anchor, that information would get shared publicly as it's relevant.

Similarly, a recreational climber who doesn't know what the "45 minute drill" is, would probably find little use for a thread discussing it's finer points, the best sites to use for practice, or looking for partners to work with on it.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,039
Alex Bury wrote:What are info ex's? Thx.
"info ex" = "information exchange," a system employed in a few other areas of the world where guides operate; basically, a listserv. There are a few for various regions of the country.

And the facebook groups do work just fine, too.
Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

Ah yes, Im familiar with listserv. Facebook too is great. But those are a lot different than what we're talking about here. Dedicating a part of mp to guiding would offer a centralized place for guides to interact, and a convenient way for clients to see who is operating in a given area.

Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Which is wholly unnecessary, given the extant resources.

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376
Tico wrote:Which is wholly unnecessary, given the extant resources.
Maybe you're aware of resources I'm not (fully possible)....to my understanding, there is no place clients can go and easily see which outfits are operating in a given area. Mountain Project is the obvious place for that.
For interacting with other guides too, seems this would blow facebook and listserv out of the water.
Tico · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 0

Clients use google. Last thing I want is for a client to google an objective and come up with a competitor on the proj, after I spent time and money getting high on the results. And honestly, if you're having trouble finding guides to talk to,

The info ex's have worked well for years. There are active ones and less active ones. I think a proj "guides corner" would be quickly dominated by a couple pins and a ton of SPI's asking embarrassing questions.

I think there is more detriment than benefit, for guides, from this. Especially if non guides can see it. And again, how do we say who's a guide?

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

That makes perfect sense, Tico. I wouldnt want good standing in the google searches diminished either. For established operations (sounds like you), a guiding aspect on mp could surely include ways to standout against startups and less established competion. Linking to yelp, facebook, posting client testimonials. Perhaps even some kind of star rating system.

"How do we tell whose a guide?"

That seems easy: those with professional certification.
I see more of a challenge in discerning which guides hold land use permits, insurance, etc...medical certification would be simple to verify though through NOLS or WMA.
The job of providing the necessary documents could be left to guides/companies, with the area's respective mp admin being tasked with verification.

Just ideas, happy to bounce 'em around and get more input.

Alex Bury · · Ojai, CA · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 2,376

Guide bump.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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