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GriGri 2 vs. Trango Cinch
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By Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Apr 17, 2011
Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on stage

shotwell wrote:
FYI, the Darkside Accident was belay failure. The climber did not skip a bolt, fell from the crux, and was dropped. The report quoted here is definitive. The statement that only three were clipped were made based on a super tense, super stressful scene. To be clear, we were more worried about making sure Mike got out of there alive than pointing fingers. I still won't blame in anger, but the truth is important. For what it is worth, I really hope the belayer is doing ok. I would be a lot more fucked up than I am if I were in his shoes. An accident like this affects everyone involved more than you can guess. However, I won't pull a punch and say it wasn't his error. Mike wasn't run out and the Cinch didn't fail. Trying to put this on either of those two is flat out erroneous.


Jesus, this is such a sad story. I agree completely that the truth is important. I can read from your tone that it is not about anger or blame. I echo your sentiment, I hope the belayer is doing ok. I also have no idea how I would deal with this type of guilt. I hope you are okay too, being first responder on this type of scene can stick with you.


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By Nate Young
From Phoenix
Aug 19, 2012
Just about to clip the 4th bolt.  We decided to climb the first section without any pro in order to negate some pretty heavy rope drag at the top.  It's easy climbing so just have a spotter at the bottom.  The belay ledge is fantastic!

shoo wrote:
You have this exactly backwards. Inexperienced climbers, in general, should typically NOT be using assisted locking belay devices. The temptation to replace competence with convenience has resulted in a number of dropped climbers. Experience climbers will often use assisted locking devices because it is often very convenient to have a devices which, once locked, stays that way until needed. This makes all kinds of things easier, especially for sport climbers.


Your argument here makes no sense when it comes to a gym setting. 90% of the climbers that come to the gym are there for their first time, and have absolutely no desire to better establish their belay technique. With that in mind, auto-locking devices are absolutely essential in creating a safe climbing atmosphere for the regular public.

Conversely, I agree with your opinion about belaying outside and with new climbers WHO WANT to hone their technique.

Summary, there is a huge difference between gym climbers and outdoor climbers.


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By Nate Young
From Phoenix
Aug 19, 2012
Just about to clip the 4th bolt.  We decided to climb the first section without any pro in order to negate some pretty heavy rope drag at the top.  It's easy climbing so just have a spotter at the bottom.  The belay ledge is fantastic!

Woodchuck ATC wrote:
Has anyone considered the Click Up? It's much cheaper and a nice easy tool to use. Not as fool proof as the grigri, but still locks off the climber with tension or a fall. I love using mine.


The click-up is NOT an automatic locking belay device like a Gri-gri or a Cinch. Automatic locking would consist of being able to lock up a falling climber without any intervention from the belayer, in situations where the belayer is incapacitated.


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By Glass Tupperware
From that stuff out East
Oct 31, 2012
Summitting Independence Monument

So, I don't see any posts about operating errors with the grigri/grigri2 that have led to excessive falls or decking. This seems to back up the assertion that the cinch is more prone to operator errors. But please bring up grigri2 related incidents (I've never had problems with mine and don't forsee having problems unless i set it up backwards).


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By climber pat
From Las Cruces, NM
Oct 31, 2012

Nate Young wrote:
The click-up is NOT an automatic locking belay device like a Gri-gri or a Cinch. Automatic locking would consist of being able to lock up a falling climber without any intervention from the belayer, in situations where the belayer is incapacitated.



Neither the cinch or the gri-gri are automatic belay devices either. The proper term is "assisted braking belay device".

From the Trango Cinch manual.
"IMPORTANT! The Cinch is an assisted-braking belay device. It is NOT an automatic belay device and therefore requires constant monitoring and control."

Likewise the Petzl manual states that you must always have your hand on the rope.

Perhaps the calling and treating of these devices as automatic belay devices is the cause of many of the accidents.

The Alpine Up and Click up are both "assisted braking devices" and will generally auto lock like a Grigri or Cinch. All of these devices require the belayer's hand control the braking side of the rope.

The difference between the alpine up and click up is that alpine up has two slots rather than one slot which allows for double rope repels and belaying with twin/double ropes. The alpine up also has a configuration which turns the device into a friction device similar to a ATC for situation where you might want a more dynamic belay. The alpine up works on 7.7 - 10.5 mm ropes. It can also be used in an auto-block mode.

I have an Alpine Up and it is really a great tool, easily the best I have used. It works very well on the thinner ropes commonly used today, locks quickly and repels well. I have totally given up on my ATC guide, Petzl Reverso, etc. Also much nice than the Mammut Smart devices.


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By Dave Holliday
Oct 31, 2012
The one they call The Husky, Natasha Holliday, Esq., enjoying Dog Dayz at Scott Carpenter Pool.

Steve R wrote:
So, I don't see any posts about operating errors with the grigri/grigri2 that have led to excessive falls or decking. This seems to back up the assertion that the cinch is more prone to operator errors. But please bring up grigri2 related incidents (I've never had problems with mine and don't forsee having problems unless i set it up backwards).


I witnessed a ground fall at my local climbing gym (dropped by belayer misusing gri-gri; climber carted out on stretcher).

A friend was dropped from the top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: four broken vertebra).

A friend of a friend was dropped from top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: broken back, no longer climbs).

For what it's worth, I was once dropped in the gym by someone using an ATC (belayer decided to remove her shoes while lead belaying me; she lost control of the rope when I fell; result: I was lucky to escape without injury but that was the last time I roped up with her).


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By RockyMtnTed
Oct 31, 2012

Dave Holliday wrote:
I witnessed a ground fall at my local climbing gym (dropped by belayer misusing gri-gri; climber carted out on stretcher). A friend was dropped from the top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: four broken vertebra). A friend of a friend was dropped from top of the wall at the gym (belayer misusing gri-gri; result: broken back, no longer climbs). For what it's worth, I was once dropped in the gym by someone using an ATC (belayer decided to remove her shoes while lead belaying me; she lost control of the rope when I fell; result: I was lucky to escape without injury but that was the last time I roped up with her).


Jesus has all the really happened? Two of your friends decked, you decked, and you witnessed someone else deck?

Sounds like you guys need to learn how to belay, remind me what gym you climb at so I know to never go there! I have been climbing in the gym 4 or 5 years now and never seen anyone deck..


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By Dave Holliday
Oct 31, 2012
The one they call The Husky, Natasha Holliday, Esq., enjoying Dog Dayz at Scott Carpenter Pool.

RockyMtnTed wrote:
Jesus has all the really happened? Two of your friends decked, you decked, and you witnessed someone else deck? Sounds like you guys need to learn how to belay, remind me what gym you climb at so I know to never go there! I have been climbing in the gym 4 or 5 years now and never seen anyone deck..


Yes, that all happened. (I've also witnessed one very serious accident outdoors involving people I didn't know.) The incidents occurred at two different gyms. Clearly, the belayers who dropped their leaders need to learn how to properly use their belay devices. I don't climb with any of the people who dropped their leaders (they were partners of my friends but not my partners). I do climb with my friend who was dropped and I completely trust him to catch me (in fact, he has caught a couple of my falls outdoors). I hope that clears things up for you.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 1, 2012
OTL

Bottom line: GriGris, Cinches and gym climbing are dangerous.


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By bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2012

Dave Holliday wrote:
Yes, that all happened. (I've also witnessed one very serious accident outdoors involving people I didn't know.) The incidents occurred at two different gyms. Clearly, the belayers who dropped their leaders need to learn how to properly use their belay devices. I don't climb with any of the people who dropped their leaders (they were partners of my friends but not my partners). I do climb with my friend who was dropped and I completely trust him to catch me (in fact, he has caught a couple of my falls outdoors). I hope that clears things up for you.


thats a lot of grounders ... i mean the gri gri is in no ways full proof or "hands free" ... but there are a lot of climbers who use it soloing ... if you use it properly it is perfectly safe, and safer than an ATC in areas with rockfall ...

something is really wrong if you are dropped or know people who are constantly being dropped ...

sport weenies take many many many falls working their projects with gri gris ... most dont get dropped, that i know of anyways


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By Jason Halladay
Administrator
From Los Alamos, NM
Nov 1, 2012
Climbing at the Belvedere crag near Nago with a great view of the northern end of Lake Garda and the town of Torbole sul Garda below. June 2013.

The December 2012 issue of Rock and Ice has an article by Chris Carithers about his being dropped, in the gym, by a belayer using a Grigri. It's an interesting read. Sounds like the belayer in that case had not used a Grigri before and likely thought the lowering lever was the engaging lever.
A friend of mine was in a class at a local gym just last week and the climber on the route next to him decked from near the top of the wall when the belayer, using a Grigri, dropped him. Miraculously the climber walked away from it. The belayer had pretty severe rope burns on his hands.
People need to learn to use their belay devices, no matter the device.


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By Dave Holliday
Nov 1, 2012
The one they call The Husky, Natasha Holliday, Esq., enjoying Dog Dayz at Scott Carpenter Pool.

bearbreeder wrote:
something is really wrong if you are dropped or know people who are constantly being dropped ...


I agree but I didn't describe a scenario where people are constantly being dropped. It happened to me once in my ten years of climbing. It happened to my friend once in his climbing career (the person who dropped him has been climbing for over thirty years; that was his only incident of the sort). I can't speak for the people involved in the other incidents I described because I don't personally know them. Decking once because of belayer error is one too many times, but it happens; that's the reality. Based on the lackadaisical belaying I see at the gym (and sometimes outdoors), I'm surprised we don't read about it happening more.

bearbreeder wrote:
most dont get dropped, that i know of anyways


But a few do.

For the record, I use a Cinch for all my belaying needs. I've never dropped anyone.


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By bearbreeder
Nov 1, 2012

Dave Holliday wrote:
I agree but I didn't describe a scenario where people are constantly being dropped. It happened to me once in my ten years of climbing. It happened to my friend once in his climbing career (the person who dropped him has been climbing for over thirty years; that was his only incident of the sort). I can't speak for the people involved in the other incidents I described because I don't personally know them. Decking once because of belayer error is one too many times, but it happens; that's the reality. Based on the lackadaisical belaying I see at the gym (and sometimes outdoors), I'm surprised we don't read about it happening more. But a few do. For the record, I use a Cinch for all my belaying needs. I've never dropped anyone.


but all it takes is someone to do it once to someone ... and theyre dead

like u said dont climb with droppers ... and there should be no forgiveness either IMO ... theyve basically messed up someones life

theres a total crap culture IMO where some people who dont know how to use climbing gear go out and say they do ... or refuse to correct their mistakes ... and put others people lives at risk

i once saw a person belaying with an inverted device in the gym ... i told him politely and he simply ignored it, he was totally new as well, didnt want to admit that he did something wrong ...


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