Green Pond, NJ

Just took a look at the newest issue of Climberism and saw an article on Green Pond. Currently, climbing isn't allowed. But the article says something about Morris County considering an option that would allow climbers to visit while accompanied by AMGA Guides.

Sort of like Sky Top?

While allowing climbing at Green Pond sounds pretty cool, I'm not cool with a "go with guide only" restriction.

Thoughts? And if someone in the know about this could further comment, that would be great. Not out to pass judgement, but the contents of the article didn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

I know that the cliffs are currently being climbed via guided tours. The Morris County Parks Commission is now looking to allow public climbing on these cliffs. It may be soon, it may be years.

I would be up for a guided tour. I've never been there before, and am not going to onsight trad climb into the unknown, so it would work out for someone like me to be guided my first time out. Do you know who is giving them?

But back to my initial post, what about all the other climbers who don't need a guide and are more than capable of climbing there ground-up, trad, and no beta?

if i, mysef, and an AMGA guide who does not happen to work for one of these outfits that have been doing tours, am i able to climb there with my partner? also, where is this place? i can't find any info on it.

T.L. Kushner wrote:if i, mysef, and an AMGA guide who does not happen to work for one of these outfits that have been doing tours, am i able to climb there with my partner? also, where is this place? i can't find any info on it.

that's my question. is this going to be an exclusive area for a particular company? if it's public park land, it's pretty unfair for their to be a monopoly on guiding as well as use. if it's private land, that's another story. but again, if anyone can clarify that would be great.

green pond is North of Route 80, between Jefferson and West Milford. I don't know the exact location of the cliffs. From what I read in Climberism, they're pretty substantial.

I found an AMGA Bulletin that contains the same info as the article in Climberism, along with contact info for the people involved with getting this area opened for climbing. So, I'm going to go ahead and send them my questions.

Green Pond – The Crown Jewel of NJ Climbing

Green Pond Mountain, 1,289 feet in elevation, is located
in Rockaway and Jefferson Township, NJ, its broad
expanse edged by the elbow of the Pequannock River.
Green Pond Mountain is a good example of Highlands
geography. The Green Pond Outlier is a complex
northeast-trending belt of Paleozoic sedimentary rocks
that bisects the Precambrian crystalline rocks of Reading
Prong and extends for 65 miles into New York.
Green Pond climbing was highlighted by a Matt Carlardo
cover shot and associated article in the AMC’s Outdoors
magazine in 2006.

The Cliffs Proper

Green Pond Mountain features 2 notable bands of cliffs,
which are located in the Craigmeur Recreation Area. The
eastern end of the precipice is known as “Green Pond
Cliffs”, while the western cliff-band has historically been
labeled “Hawks Cliff ”. This section of cliff ranges from
180’ to 220’ in height and 2,000’ feet wide. At the base
of these cliffs is a large and complex talus field presenting
many potential bouldering opportunities. The cliff angles
outward and upward with some of the most committing
multi-pitch routes in New Jersey. Horizontal holds, thin
faces, vertical cracks and overhangs abound. Hawks Cliff
offers a rare opportunity for true adventure climbing and
first ascents of traditional routes and highball boulder
problems. There is historic evidence of climbing here,
ranging from rusty pins and bolts, to the old Goldline
rope found on what is now called Goldline Ledge. The
site has some of the most beautiful vistas anywhere in the
state, and most climbers that have visited, agree that the
area could be a major regional rock-climbing destination.

Access to Green Pond

Green Pond climbing was ramped up a few notches in
2010, after 20+ years of dormancy. Andrew Sinclair, a
local climber, and John Anderson, an AMGA member
since 1987, along with a small group of AMGA Certified
Guides, have completed a series of first known ascents
at Green Pond, with the purpose of assess the quality
of climbing as a public resource for the Morris County
Park System. Their proposal is currently awaiting
finalization by Morris County that would allow for access
to AMGA Certified Guides and their clients. For liability
reasons, and considering the adventurous nature of the
climbing, the area will not yet be open to non-guided
climbing. It is important to note that this article does
not guarantee climbing access. Access at Green Pond will
be under specific stipulations set by the Morris County
Parks Commission. Climbing on this unique and fragile
resource is a privilege, as well as a unique experience in
this part of the country.

This is the only picture I have

I just spoke to Andrew Sinclair. Nice guy. We talked Green Pond, Jersey Climbing, and Ice. I'll do my best to recap our conversation as it relates to this discussion.

The reason for Guided Climbing only (not limited AMGA Guides) is insurance. Morris County wants the climber to be covered by the guide's insurance in the event of an accident. The county won't issue a waiver of liability to climb. But to address my main concern, no particular guiding outfit, or climbing organization, has a monopoly on Green Pond.

And the "climbing assessment" is still ongoing and a decision has yet to be made. Welcome to Jersey.

It seems like good people, with good intentions, are trying their best to legalize climbing here for the all right reasons.

Michael C wrote:I just spoke to Andrew Sinclair. Nice guy. We talked Green Pond, Jersey Climbing, and Ice. I'll do my best to recap our conversation as it relates to this discussion. The reason for Guided Climbing only (not limited AMGA Guides) is insurance. Morris County wants the climber to be covered by the guide's insurance in the event of an accident. The county won't issue a waiver of liability to climb. But to address my main concern, no particular guiding outfit, or climbing organization, has a monopoly on Green Pond. And the "climbing assessment" is still ongoing and a decision has yet to be made. Welcome to Jersey. It seems like good people, with good intentions, are trying their best to legalize climbing here for the all right reasons.

So why doesn't the town sign a recreational lease with someone like the access fund who can provide the insurance coverage rather then make this a good ol boys club where guides get special privileges and exclusive access to a public resource?

Am I really to believe that guides will only be there with clients, not spending off days there with friends? I doubt it. This sounds like some bullshit spoon fed by the guy making a buck off your land.

Morris County still isn't sure if they are going to even legalize climbing there. But it sounds like the goal is for it to be a place like Allamuchy or The Powerlinez, where you sign a waiver to climb. The state it's in now is unique because it's under "assessment", whatever that is. But it's the county, not the climbers involved, who are being particular about all these rules for fear of liability and lawsuits.

Anyway, I can't be the middle-man or spokesman for those involved. I asked my questions, and those are the answers I got. The people mentioned in the article, Andrew and John, said they were happy to discuss.

I have seen these for quite sometime as my old man lives in Sparta and I always on the look out for routes. I found them one day and they are reminiscent of Farley back here in MA sans bolts.

I have done research on this and have found other past forum posts and discussions on GP that there was no true limitation on them - hell even the AMC has it on their website without mentioning a guide need.

I guess my question is when did it become an issue climbing there and why? From some of the classic pics ive seen there are even some route names people put up (ie Jenga, etc.)

What is really stopping anyone from climbing there? Not saying I will as i believe in letting the system work and thats why I support / donate to the Access Fund. But Really?

I am on board with Phoenix, just write a note in your back pocket when they find you saying you understood the risks and its your fault - haha.

Any way to put pressure on MCPC to make a decision or even petition to move forward. Its a simple yes or no.

A few of my thoughts...

Hi all,

Green pond is open to any guiding service with the proper insurance requirements that Andrew Sinclair has set forth. 1 million per occurrence and 2+ million aggregate. I've spoken with Andrew Sinclair several times about this area, he actually called us and invited us on a tour of Green Pond to show us the routes and access for clients. It is open to guiding services with the above stated insurance requirements and is not limited to just AMGA guides. Both PCGI, AMGA and un-certified guides have established routes there in the past year or so. Andrew has done an AMAZING job at gaining access to the area and has a nice pdf guidebook for it as well. Guiding services also have to pay a $25 per client fee to the park service.It is also backed up to a residential area/street and the park system doesn't want to bother neighbors with cars being parked on streets. Opening it to recreational use for anyone would impact the area.

Thanks,
Joey Vulpis
Owner of Northeast Mountain Guiding

NEGuiding wrote:Hi all, Green pond is open to any guiding service with the proper insurance requirements that Andrew Sinclair has set forth. 1 million per occurrence and 2+ million aggregate. I've spoken with Andrew Sinclair several times about this area, he actually called us and invited us on a tour of Green Pond to show us the routes and access for clients. It is open to guiding services with the above stated insurance requirements and is not limited to just AMGA guides. Both PCGI, AMGA and un-certified guides have established routes there in the past year or so. Andrew has done an AMAZING job at gaining access to the area and has a nice pdf guidebook for it as well. Guiding services also have to pay a $25 per client fee to the park service.It is also backed up to a residential area/street and the park system doesn't want to bother neighbors with cars being parked on streets. Opening it to recreational use for anyone would impact the area. Thanks, Joey Vulpis Owner of Northeast Mountain Guiding

Well I guess congratulation are in order for getting your 'guide only' area open on public land. Must be nice... So what other public lands are accessed only by hiring a private company in NJ?

To me it's akin to a County making a law stating you can only surf on the Jersey shore if you have a surfing guide company take you because it's dangerous. Sounds ridiculous? That's cause it's bullshit just like this... I'm sorry for the harsh words but, there are many options out there to deal with liability and this is the most exclusionary type I can think of. Someone mentioned Skytop above, Skytop is PRIVATE LAND, this is PUBLIC LAND and therefore bullshit.

D-Roc wrote:What is really stopping anyone from climbing there

Well you can bet that if you show up without a guide, the other 'guides' will bitch and moan and tell you to leave and if you ignore them long enough their egos will inflate just enough for one of them to report you. Of course they discussed how to keep it theirs during their discussions, to think otherwise would be naive. . .

The Phoenix wrote: congratulation are in order for getting your 'guide only' area open on public land.

That's really not the case.

Morris County demands that while Green Pond is under assessment (key words - while Green Pond is under assessment) anyone climbing there must be covered under liability insurance.

When I started this thread I had a lot of questions because I was under the impression that this whole thing was a bunch of shennanigans. But as soon as I talked to the people involved, namely Andrew, I got a pretty clear explanation of what's going on. And by the way, Andrew isn't a guide.

I'm actually going to visit Green Pond in a few weeks with some of the people I've talked to outside of MP. All I had to do was reach out to the people involved and they were very friendly and open to giving information. it's really not what you think.

Michael C wrote: (key words - while Green Pond is under assessment) anyone climbing there must be covered under liability insurance.

Well if it changes to an open use policy I'd gladly eat my words and give a big TKU to those involved, even if I never visit.

Phoenix - I'm trying my best to drop hints without being obvious.

I'm not a member of the good ol' boys club. But I am a friendly guy who reaches out to people (hint, hint).

climbn back in at green pond. east side of the preferred that one gets a hiking parking permit from newark watershed up on echo lake road. in doing do so don't mention climbn. drive back to the old train station on green pond road. follow the red dot to the cliff top. as from hawks cliff, no-one is coming out looking for anyone. best parking is up to the individual. i prefer parking and following the four birds trail. pissing of local homeowners is counter-productive.....john anderson ( i don;t follow teh thread like crazy but post away)

jia wrote:climbn back in at green pond. east side of the preferred that one gets a hiking parking permit from newark watershed up on echo lake road. in doing do so don't mention climbn. drive back to the old train station on green pond road. follow the red dot to the cliff top. as from hawks cliff, no-one is coming out looking for anyone. best parking is up to the individual. i prefer parking and following the four birds trail. pissing of local homeowners is counter-productive.....john anderson ( i don;t follow teh thread like crazy but post away)

WTF?

Yeah wait what?

i dont see what the big deal is. folks wanna go climbn at green pond go climbn. if your a guide you can climb w/ a permit. if your not just go climb. if you get hurt at green pond there are consequences. but hell isn't that life