Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Got blowtorch?
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 2 of 2.  <<First   <Prev   1  2
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Tradoholic
Jan 7, 2013
Jason N. wrote:
Only in the context of climbing is it a big deal, because losing holds can dramatically change climbs.


I say sweet deal, turns a tired old heap into a new challenge. Let the weak fail I say.

FLAG
By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jan 7, 2013
CoR
vinny6 wrote:
.... What about drilling and blasting a hole through the side of a mountain to build a tunnel so as to drive through, or destroying a farmland or forest to build ones "dream home". These things seem to me at least to be a bigger impact on environment than drying a hold off.


The rocks blasting/tunnel building forum is two doors down. We are talking about climbing on this forum.

FLAG
By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Jan 7, 2013
CoR
Most of you need to read the Chouinard 72 forum post. He made the world a much better place for rock lovers. Have you, or are you only into making it a better place for yourself?

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 7, 2013
From the "Chounaird 72" forum post:

Aeryn wrote:
Not sure how accessible Chouinard's 72 catalog is, but here's part of what it said, for anyone who's interested. Seems as smart today as it was 40 years ago... Doug Robinson's the author. Proud that this is a part of climbing history. But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotecable and remain a challenge that can only be solved by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the future's capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present - by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today. Besides leaving alone what one cannot climb in good style, there are some practical corollaries of boldness in free climbing. Learning to climb down is valuable for retreating from a clean and bold place that gets too airy. And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style - a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such systems there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems". Carried out these practices would tend to lead from quantitative to qualitative standards of climbing, an assertion that the climbing experience cannot be measured by an expression of pitches per hour, that a climb cannot be reduced to maps and decimals. That the motions of climbing, the sharpness of the environment, the climber's reactions are still only themselves, and their dividends of joy personal and private.


Just about says it all, I think. Didn't see any mentions of blowtorches in Chounaird's & Robinson's early treatise.

FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 11, 2013
Stoked...
TRmasta wrote:
this is how its done in CT bro youtu.be/cnDnkdg7sPA


Dude that thing is bad ass... we NEED to get one for the Westwoods boulders!!

Oh... and on that note. The blowtorch is a regular part of my bouldering setup. I'm not out at any significant established areas blasting well known lines but I honestly call BS on you wankers out there blasting the torch claiming all this damage. If used irresponsibly, of yes of course it could cause some theoretical damage. A 5-20 sec hit with the torch to evaporate the water does nothing to the rock. It warms it up to about the same amount as what you would find if the hold was in the hot sun on a summer day. I regularly grab a hold immediately after using a torch and the holds barely heat up to above 98.6 deg. Just by the physics of it, the heat is being transferred into the water which, is why it is evaporating. Some heat transfers to the rock but it is minimal until the water is gone. I have torched hundreds of holds and I've NEVER had an issue with a solid hold suddenly breaking after drying it. If a hold were to break I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that that hold would likely have broken from natural causes in the future as well. If someone were to do this irrisponsibly and a hold broke well... now your route or problem has what we call climbing history, welcome to the jungle!

Edit: I usually climb on Granite, Gniess, Schist here in CT so none of those soft rocks which I would suspect would be different cases.

FLAG
By Ed Wright
Jan 11, 2013
Magic Ed
TWK wrote:
Hilarious! But, I guess you're right. Here in California, we just ski until the warm sun dries out the granite. I guess I'll just never be "Midwest Hardcore". But isn't that an oxymoron?


Not an oxymoron. Believe it or not there is fabulous climbing and bouldering in the Mid-west and lots of dedicated hard core climbers.

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 11, 2013
Ed Wright wrote:
Believe it or not there is fabulous climbing and bouldering in the Mid-west and lots of dedicated hard core climbers.


My bad--I forgot. There was an old stone silo we used to climb as the only terrain feature in an endless corn field.

But only on the annual fine day, when it wasn't raining, snowing, sleeting, or sweltering.

FLAG
By patto
Jan 11, 2013
This just adds to the notion that bouldering is an f'ed up sport.

FLAG
 
By J Q
Jan 11, 2013
Me again!
CaptainMo wrote:
Dude that thing is bad ass... we NEED to get one for the Westwoods boulders!! Oh... and on that note. The blowtorch is a regular part of my bouldering setup. I'm not out at any significant established areas blasting well known lines but I honestly call BS on you wankers out there blasting the torch claiming all this damage. If used irresponsibly, of yes of course it could cause some theoretical damage. A 5-20 sec hit with the torch to evaporate the water does nothing to the rock. It warms it up to about the same amount as what you would find if the hold was in the hot sun on a summer day. I regularly grab a hold immediately after using a torch and the holds barely heat up to above 98.6 deg. Just by the physics of it, the heat is being transferred into the water which, is why it is evaporating. Some heat transfers to the rock but it is minimal until the water is gone. I have torched hundreds of holds and I've NEVER had an issue with a solid hold suddenly breaking after drying it. If a hold were to break I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that that hold would likely have broken from natural causes in the future as well. If someone were to do this irrisponsibly and a hold broke well... now your route or problem has what we call climbing history, welcome to the jungle! Edit: I usually climb on Granite, Gniess, Schist here in CT so none of those soft rocks which I would suspect would be different cases.



Yea, and much of the time route manufacturing is unnoticeable and appreciated. Yet, route modification gets derided because of the people who are idiots and do a poor job. It seems that by proclaiming that it's OK to use a blow torch, you are encouraging morons to rock modification. I am sure you have never fUUCKED up a climb but others have. I am sure many rock modifications go unnoticed, but, the ones that didn't are the ones we remember.

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 11, 2013
This is like going off trail on a backpacking trip and taking a weedeater, chainsaw, and sprayer full of Round Up along.

Stay in the gym, melt the chalk off the plastic holds with yer torch.
Geez.

FLAG
By Ian Stewart
Jan 11, 2013
I'm going to agree with CaptainMo here. Yes, it's certainly true that some amount of heat can/will damage rock, but how much heat does there need to be before such damage occurs? And how long would one have to be standing there with a little propane torch before the rock gets anywhere close to those temperatures? I'm betting that you'd need to be somewhere in the multi-thousand degree range, and if you're getting the rock that hot in the first place you're probably not going to be climbing it very soon after (which would kinda defeat the purpose).

Mo's statement about most of the heat going into the water instead of the rock is also true. Have any of you ever left a pot of water boiling long enough that the water completely evaporates and then you damage the pan because the coating burns? It's the same thing as the rock...as long as there's still water on it, the rock probably isn't going to get much of the heat.

Most of the arguments people have are either unrelated, a stretch, or taken out of context:

Dan Felix wrote:
It is noted in the Rumney guidebook that a hold broke on a boulder problem due to the first ascentionist drying the rock with a torch, which then made the problem a grade harder.


Did it break because of the torch or did it break because the rock was weak to begin with? If you fart and a hold breaks, is it the fart's fault?

Dan Felix wrote:
Yes, drying with high heat (flame) *will* weaken the rock, regardless of any natural imperfections that otherwise exist.


How much heat does it need? Technically there's already heat in the rock since you're not climbing on a rock that's 0 degrees kelvin. I know that wood burns, and yet I've been using a wood pipe for a long time without it catching fire in my hands when I light it...

Alex McIntyre wrote:
There has been at least one climbing area utterly demolished by a wildfire coming into contact with the rock, if not more. Why is ANYONE surprised that extreme heat will weaken rock?


You're going to compare a wildfire to a propane torch used on wet rock for a few seconds? Ok...

J Q wrote:
It seems that by proclaiming that it's OK to use a blow torch, you are encouraging morons to rock modification. I am sure you have never fUUCKED up a climb but others have. I am sure many rock modifications go unnoticed, but, the ones that didn't are the ones we remember.


Again, "heat" does not imply "rock modification" (though of course I'm open to somebody proving me wrong with real facts/evidence).

TWK wrote:
This is like going off trail on a backpacking trip and taking a weedeater, chainsaw, and sprayer full of Round Up along.


I'd say it's more like going backpacking and having a fire inside a damp fire pit.


I'm willing to bet that the wear on rock due to hands, fingers, protection, and especially climbing shoes makes a FAR larger impact than torches have, yet you don't see people raging against the use of climbing shoes.

FLAG
By leave a trace
Jan 11, 2013
This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

By leave a trace
Jan 11, 2013
TWK wrote:
Hilarious! But, I guess you're right. Here in California, My mom and Dad pay my bills so I just ski until the warm sun dries out the granite. I guess I'll just never be "Midwest Hardcore". But isn't that an oxymoron?


This is what he meant to say

FLAG
By England
From ?
Jan 11, 2013
Alpine toothpick.
leave a trace wrote:
Speak for yourself tweaker bitch, I chisel and blowtorch rocks in your back yard mother fucker.

How are you still on this site?

FLAG
By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 11, 2013
modern man
after TWK admits he is from the midwest this thread went downhill quickly. why is that?

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 11, 2013
Yo, Leave a Turd:

My parents are dead. I pay my own bills. You're rude.

Hey TRmasta;

I'm not from the midwest, and if I was--1) I wouldn't admit it; and 2) I'd for sure pull chocks and get the f*#k outta Dodge as fast as possible. We used to climb the "Pigs in Space" silo in Ithaca, and I was employing artistic license.

But, ultimately, the more people that remain satisfied with flat cornfields, terrible weather, bad food, and fat women, the less crowded California will be.

It's not about the impact, ya'll. It's about common sense ethics and principles of Fair Chase. It just flat seems completely stupid to employ a blowtorch to engage in the ultimately trivial pursuit of climbing on rock. Go find something else to do until it dries out.

FLAG
 
By Tradoholic
Jan 12, 2013
Rock climbing isn't trivial, you're just not dedicated enough.

What are you going to do if you see someone using a blowtorch? Are you going to beat them up? Keep in mind they are armed with a blow torch ;)

Here's what will happen: Blowtorch hater will just furrow their brow and move on. At best a snarky/informative comment will come out ala "Ya know that hurts the rock, doncha"? The torch offender will either ignore the comment or move on with "Yea? Well, whatever man." Here the civility of person to person contact will take hold and the two parties will go their opposite ways. However, this scenario would simply never happen because the hater will stay indoors that day to play Xbox and the rock climber will be outside climbing rocks, no matter what the weather.

It's good to get your voice heard, that's what the forums are for, but what's truly trivial is all the digital hot air. I'm not saying it isn't fun though!

FLAG
By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 12, 2013
modern man
TWK wrote:
I'm not from the midwest, and if I was--1) I wouldn't admit it; and 2) I'd for sure pull chocks and get the f*#k outta Dodge as fast as possible. We used to climb the "Pigs in Space" silo in Ithaca, and I was employing artistic license. But, ultimately, the more people that remain satisfied with flat cornfields, terrible weather, bad food, and fat women, the less crowded California will be. It's not about the impact, ya'll. It's about common sense ethics and principles of Fair Chase. It just flat seems completely stupid to employ a blowtorch to engage in the ultimately trivial pursuit of climbing on rock. Go find something else to do until it dries out.

dont worry bro, everyone is going to ColorAdo these days

torching-just another use of aid. similar to killing birds with guns, you ought to try a spear or a slingshot sometime. killing with guns seems really retarded.

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 12, 2013
Red Tagger wrote:
Rock climbing isn't trivial, you're just not dedicated enough.


Ultimately, climbing remains as trivial as anything else, no matter how dedicated a person is. In 1,000 years, will it really matter if someone climbed this route, or that sport climb, or solved a certain boulder problem? And the same can be said of most other sporting activities. Super Bowl XXXVIII? Who cares? It's not as if we're saving a species from extinction, or curing diabetes.

Red Tagger wrote:
What are you going to do if you see someone using a blowtorch? Are you going to beat them up? Keep in mind they are armed with a blow torch ;) Here's what will happen: Blowtorch hater will just furrow their brow and move on. At best a snarky/informative comment will come out ala "Ya know that hurts the rock, doncha"? The torch offender will either ignore the comment or move on with "Yea? Well, whatever man." Here the civility of person to person contact will take hold and the two parties will go their opposite ways.


We pretty much agree here, although I haven't suggested beating anyone up for blowtorching rocks. And, I don't think the issue is whether or not the rock is "hurt". I just think it's stupid, but probably no more stupid than downhill skiing, which I enjoy. Probably about as stupid as sliding downhill on man-made snow in an air-conditioned building in Dubai.

Red Tagger wrote:
However, this scenario would simply never happen because the hater will stay indoors that day to play Xbox and the rock climber will be outside climbing rocks, no matter what the weather. It's good to get your voice heard, that's what the forums are for, but what's truly trivial is all the digital hot air. I'm not saying it isn't fun though!


Fair enough, but on rainy days, if I'm free from work, I'll be out for a run or a hunt with my dogs and daughters, or improving something around the house. You're right--I won't be drying out damp rock with a torch.

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 12, 2013
TRmasta wrote:
dont worry bro, everyone is going to ColorAdo these days torching-just another use of aid. similar to killing birds with guns, you ought to try a spear or a slingshot sometime. killing with guns seems really retarded.


I've used a bow and arrow on birds--does that count?

I only kill birds when the weather's appropriate for the activity. I'm a well-rounded individual, a man for ALL seasons. I can fit my activities to the weather and the environmental conditions, not vice versa.

The A-Team
The A-Team

FLAG
By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 12, 2013
modern man
TWK wrote:
I've used a bow and arrow on birds--does that count? I only kill birds when the weather's appropriate for the activity. I'm a well-rounded individual, a man for ALL seasons. I can fit my activities to the weather and the environmental conditions, not vice versa.

should the flaming torchers strive to be more like you?

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 12, 2013
TRmasta wrote:
should the flaming torchers strive to be more like you?


Funny question. I hope not--I don't need any more competition or people out in the field or the woods.

You know, BITD, the use of chalk was considered anathema. We were offended, even horrified by it. The raging debate is pretty much extinguished, and the sequence to the top is painted white, worldwide.

Same for power drills, although some still find ways to push the to-bolt-or-not-to-be controversy.

Can we envision a day where multitudes of climbers infest rock surfaces with umbrellas instead of helmets, and a blowtorch kept handy in a converted hammer holster is as commonplace as quickdraws and bolts pre-placed on rappel?

Ethics devolve.

FLAG
By CJC
Jan 12, 2013
so now if you're not out torchin holds you're not CORE

lol what a joke

FLAG
By TWK
Jan 12, 2013
Not "dedicated".

FLAG
 


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 2 of 2.  <<First   <Prev   1  2