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Good bolt or Bad bolt
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By Ryan-Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 18, 2012
NCCC

Would you trust this bolt?


Bolt from the 90's
Bolt from the 90's


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By steven sadler
From SLC, UT
Sep 18, 2012

I'd clip it but do everything I could not to fall on it.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Sep 18, 2012

negatory.


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By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Sep 18, 2012

if you have to ask...


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By Greg D
From Here
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Actually, its probably fine. The fact that it has some camo paint tells me the installer puts above average effort into his bolts. But, in general, I trust gear more than bolts.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Sep 18, 2012
Stabby

Minor surface corrosion, like a patina. Our buildings, highways and cities are held together by stuff like that. You have no idea how often you are underneath several tons of vibrating machinery in a building that is anchored by plated steel.
Its when you start to signs of exfoliation that it is suspect.
I have much more of a problem with seeing an inch or two of threads from the stud sticking out.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
Stoked...

ya probably... the leader doesn't fall anyways, right?


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Sep 18, 2012
modern man

no rust streak down the rock, I'd whip on it


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By Dom
Administrator
From New Brunswick Canada
Sep 18, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-

Pretty standard plated steel bolt on an SS hanger. Not the greatest but this one doesn't look too bad. I'd whip on it for sure but over the long term this bolt will have to be replaced.


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By Don MacKenzie
From Seattle, WA
Sep 18, 2012

El Tigre wrote:
Minor surface corrosion, like a patina. Our buildings, highways and cities are held together by stuff like that. You have no idea how often you are underneath several tons of vibrating machinery in a building that is anchored by plated steel. Its when you start to signs of exfoliation that it is suspect.



What, like this?



www.flickr.com/photos/wbur/502309682/in/photostream/


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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 18, 2012
The Shield

Thats a bad bolt. The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads. All force becomes pullout with a bolt, and thus the threads have to be strong.


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By Greg D
From Here
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Thats a bad bolt. The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads. All force becomes pullout with a bolt, and thus the threads have to be strong.


Sure, on overhanging rock pullout strength is critical. But, this one looks like less than vertical. Hence, it will likely see much more shear force than pullout.

Edit, not saying it is bomber and feel free to whip. But, I've relied on much worse.


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By Brian in SLC
Sep 18, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

90's is all? Yikes.

I'd probably consider the route, where the bolt was on the route, and, the angle of the route.

If that was the second or third bolt protecting a steep section where if the leader popped off they'd take a hard fall onto the bolt, then, I'd be leary of it.

If the route is a slab and the force on the bolt from a leader is low, as in, the bolt is high on the route and it'd be a low force style sliding fall...then...maybe...

Pretty rusty but there's not a big rust streak coming off it. Mass loss looks low. Can't see in the hole...

Looks like a powerstud or Hilti KBII.

I wouldn't care to fall on it.


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By tim naylor
Sep 18, 2012

bad


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
Stoked...

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads.


hum... It reads like maybe you brain farted somewhere after corrosion and before people....


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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 18, 2012
The Shield

Greg, matters just as much here.
Captain Mo, there are people who like to say "minor surface corrosion", and I am refering to them as a group.

BTW< Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.


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By dannl
Sep 18, 2012

Sam can you clarify please:

Are you saying that the threads are rusted to the point you expect if whipped on, the nut would shear off the rusty threads, popping the hanger off?

I don't have enough experience in bolt assessment, but I might say, "Hanger looks good, bolt is rusty but not falling apart", whereas you might say...."Bolt is plain too rusty"..?

I haven't seen lots of pics of sheared bolts, but lots of rusted-into-oblivion, removed-while-still-whole bolts


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By kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Sep 18, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Greg, matters just as much here. Captain Mo, there are people who like to say "minor surface corrosion", and I am refering to them as a group. BTW< Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.


Umm, at least with the KBIII you can get them in imperial sizes as well as metric, not sure about the KBII's, but I would imagine that you could as well.

As far as the bolt goes, it does look like it's about time to replace it, but I'd be willing to bet that it still holds well over 10 kN (i.e. more than you'll ever see in a standard sport climbing fall).


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By Ed Wright
Sep 18, 2012
Magic Ed

I'd use it but would have to be in desperate straights to use it as a single-point rap anchor.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
Sep 18, 2012

It is likely fine, I would fall on it if I had something else between me and the deck. But, it needs to be replaced. If the whole sport route had bolts looking like that, I would note it as a potentially unsafe route and in need of a retrobolt.


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By Greg D
From Here
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

20 kN wrote:
in need of a retrobolt.


Eek. Retro is a naughty word. Means adding bolts that weren't there.
Rebolt is more like it. Means replacing existing bolts in existing locations.


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By Max Supertramp
Sep 18, 2012

I think 20kn was trying to say that it should be replaced with this bolt

a true retrobolt
a true retrobolt


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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 19, 2012
The Shield

My point is a bolt is only as good as its weakest link. The thinnest metal on a bolt is in the threading. Its also the part of a galvanized bolt that has the thinnest protection. In a fall, there is no such thing as "only shear". You get lots of pull out force as well. If the bolt is not absolutely sealed to the wall, as in its a spinner (at all), you set yourself up for huge amounts of pullout on any fall. My metal dude, who is probably reading this (he has an advanced degree in alloys and specifically works with fasteners for high end building projects... and he's a climber) says you likely loose about 50% of the strength of a bolt if the hanger is not held solidly to the wall. A good bit of that force goes onto the threads... and they are clearly weakened on this bolt.

Another problem you may face with this bolt is that when corrosion takes place the metal becomes more brittle.This means it doesn't flex much... and can crack. The crack then allows corrosion to go deeper into the shaft of the bolt, and it builds on itself. And thats that.

Again, you clip that thing cus its all you have when you get there... but if you look up a wall and see a line of bolts like that, you don't climb that route. As a matter of fact, if you see a bolt like that at the start and suspect more bolts above, you do another route. You don't want to zipper a pitch.


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By Ryan-Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Sep 19, 2012
NCCC

I'm removing the bolt and having it examined for SCC (Stress Corrosion Cracking). The bolt is an old FIXE "Stainless Steel Hanger". In the 90's Fixe was advertising for "True" Stainless Steel, but there hangers actually just had a stainless steel clad coating. Fixe almost got sued and changed there act. This explains some of the issue with the rusting and minor corrosion. Also this bolt is located on a water streak, so it's exposed to a lot of wet and dry.

Once I examine the bolts in more detail, I could post up my results in this thread for anyone who'd be interested.


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By Brian in SLC
Sep 19, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

Yeah, post any info!

Funk that rig and see if you can shear it off. If you had the time and a load cell...

Is it pretty solid? Sometimes those old, rusty studs just come flying out of a hole...

Thanks for posting!


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By Brian in SLC
Sep 21, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.


Finally back to this...

Powerstud v Hilti KBII v Hilti KBIII
Powerstud v Hilti KBII v Hilti KBIII


Same size nut on all three.

Cheers!


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