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Good bolt or Bad bolt
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Sep 18, 2012
Bouldering in Morocco.
Would you trust this bolt?


Bolt from the 90's
Bolt from the 90's
Ryan-Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Sep 22, 2010
401 points
Sep 18, 2012
I'd clip it but do everything I could not to fall on it. steven sadler
From SLC, UT
Joined May 8, 2010
81 points
Sep 18, 2012
negatory. John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,395 points
Sep 18, 2012
if you have to ask... NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Joined Oct 6, 2011
116 points
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Actually, its probably fine. The fact that it has some camo paint tells me the installer puts above average effort into his bolts. But, in general, I trust gear more than bolts. Greg D
From Here
Joined Apr 5, 2006
961 points
Sep 18, 2012
Stabby
Minor surface corrosion, like a patina. Our buildings, highways and cities are held together by stuff like that. You have no idea how often you are underneath several tons of vibrating machinery in a building that is anchored by plated steel.
Its when you start to signs of exfoliation that it is suspect.
I have much more of a problem with seeing an inch or two of threads from the stud sticking out.
Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Joined Jan 21, 2006
839 points
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
A Very Not Snowy Christmas...
ya probably... the leader doesn't fall anyways, right? Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,422 points
Sep 18, 2012
the man was smart
no rust streak down the rock, I'd whip on it T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,057 points
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
Moby dick 5.11-
Pretty standard plated steel bolt on an SS hanger. Not the greatest but this one doesn't look too bad. I'd whip on it for sure but over the long term this bolt will have to be replaced. Dom
From New Brunswick Canada
Joined Dec 8, 2007
1,176 points
Sep 18, 2012
El Tigre wrote:
Minor surface corrosion, like a patina. Our buildings, highways and cities are held together by stuff like that. You have no idea how often you are underneath several tons of vibrating machinery in a building that is anchored by plated steel. Its when you start to signs of exfoliation that it is suspect.



What, like this?



flickr.com/photos/wbur/5023096...
Don MacKenzie
From Seattle, WA
Joined Apr 18, 2009
22 points
Sep 18, 2012
The Shield
Thats a bad bolt. The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads. All force becomes pullout with a bolt, and thus the threads have to be strong. Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Joined Apr 9, 2006
2,248 points
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Thats a bad bolt. The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads. All force becomes pullout with a bolt, and thus the threads have to be strong.


Sure, on overhanging rock pullout strength is critical. But, this one looks like less than vertical. Hence, it will likely see much more shear force than pullout.

Edit, not saying it is bomber and feel free to whip. But, I've relied on much worse.
Greg D
From Here
Joined Apr 5, 2006
961 points
Sep 18, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
90's is all? Yikes.

I'd probably consider the route, where the bolt was on the route, and, the angle of the route.

If that was the second or third bolt protecting a steep section where if the leader popped off they'd take a hard fall onto the bolt, then, I'd be leary of it.

If the route is a slab and the force on the bolt from a leader is low, as in, the bolt is high on the route and it'd be a low force style sliding fall...then...maybe...

Pretty rusty but there's not a big rust streak coming off it. Mass loss looks low. Can't see in the hole...

Looks like a powerstud or Hilti KBII.

I wouldn't care to fall on it.
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Sep 18, 2012
bad tim naylor
Joined Mar 18, 2004
473 points
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
A Very Not Snowy Christmas...
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
The "minor surface corrosion" people don't take into account the thickness of the threads.


hum... It reads like maybe you brain farted somewhere after corrosion and before people....
Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,422 points
Sep 18, 2012
The Shield
Greg, matters just as much here.
Captain Mo, there are people who like to say "minor surface corrosion", and I am refering to them as a group.

BTW< Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.
Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Joined Apr 9, 2006
2,248 points
Sep 18, 2012
Sam can you clarify please:

Are you saying that the threads are rusted to the point you expect if whipped on, the nut would shear off the rusty threads, popping the hanger off?

I don't have enough experience in bolt assessment, but I might say, "Hanger looks good, bolt is rusty but not falling apart", whereas you might say...."Bolt is plain too rusty"..?

I haven't seen lots of pics of sheared bolts, but lots of rusted-into-oblivion, removed-while-still-whole bolts
dannl
Joined Apr 12, 2010
16 points
Sep 18, 2012
Climbing at the Gallery in Red Rocks
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Greg, matters just as much here. Captain Mo, there are people who like to say "minor surface corrosion", and I am refering to them as a group. BTW< Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.


Umm, at least with the KBIII you can get them in imperial sizes as well as metric, not sure about the KBII's, but I would imagine that you could as well.

As far as the bolt goes, it does look like it's about time to replace it, but I'd be willing to bet that it still holds well over 10 kN (i.e. more than you'll ever see in a standard sport climbing fall).
kennoyce
From Layton, UT
Joined Aug 12, 2010
1,504 points
Sep 18, 2012
Magic Ed
I'd use it but would have to be in desperate straights to use it as a single-point rap anchor. Ed Wright
Joined May 14, 2006
332 points
Administrator
Sep 18, 2012
It is likely fine, I would fall on it if I had something else between me and the deck. But, it needs to be replaced. If the whole sport route had bolts looking like that, I would note it as a potentially unsafe route and in need of a retrobolt. 20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
727 points
Sep 18, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
20 kN wrote:
in need of a retrobolt.


Eek. Retro is a naughty word. Means adding bolts that weren't there.
Rebolt is more like it. Means replacing existing bolts in existing locations.
Greg D
From Here
Joined Apr 5, 2006
961 points
Sep 18, 2012
I think 20kn was trying to say that it should be replaced with this bolt
a true retrobolt
a true retrobolt
Max Supertramp
Joined Mar 21, 2008
72 points
Sep 19, 2012
The Shield
My point is a bolt is only as good as its weakest link. The thinnest metal on a bolt is in the threading. Its also the part of a galvanized bolt that has the thinnest protection. In a fall, there is no such thing as "only shear". You get lots of pull out force as well. If the bolt is not absolutely sealed to the wall, as in its a spinner (at all), you set yourself up for huge amounts of pullout on any fall. My metal dude, who is probably reading this (he has an advanced degree in alloys and specifically works with fasteners for high end building projects... and he's a climber) says you likely loose about 50% of the strength of a bolt if the hanger is not held solidly to the wall. A good bit of that force goes onto the threads... and they are clearly weakened on this bolt.

Another problem you may face with this bolt is that when corrosion takes place the metal becomes more brittle.This means it doesn't flex much... and can crack. The crack then allows corrosion to go deeper into the shaft of the bolt, and it builds on itself. And thats that.

Again, you clip that thing cus its all you have when you get there... but if you look up a wall and see a line of bolts like that, you don't climb that route. As a matter of fact, if you see a bolt like that at the start and suspect more bolts above, you do another route. You don't want to zipper a pitch.
Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Joined Apr 9, 2006
2,248 points
Sep 19, 2012
Bouldering in Morocco.
I'm removing the bolt and having it examined for SCC (Stress Corrosion Cracking). The bolt is an old FIXE "Stainless Steel Hanger". In the 90's Fixe was advertising for "True" Stainless Steel, but there hangers actually just had a stainless steel clad coating. Fixe almost got sued and changed there act. This explains some of the issue with the rusting and minor corrosion. Also this bolt is located on a water streak, so it's exposed to a lot of wet and dry.

Once I examine the bolts in more detail, I could post up my results in this thread for anyone who'd be interested.
Ryan-Nelson
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Sep 22, 2010
401 points
Sep 19, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Yeah, post any info!

Funk that rig and see if you can shear it off. If you had the time and a load cell...

Is it pretty solid? Sometimes those old, rusty studs just come flying out of a hole...

Thanks for posting!
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points
Sep 21, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:
Brian, I dont think its hilti... I think its your standard "whatever" at the hardware store. Hiliti KBll's have that larger nut. That nut looks small, like its imperial rather than metric.


Finally back to this...

Powerstud v Hilti KBII v Hilti KBIII
Powerstud v Hilti KBII v Hilti KBIII


Same size nut on all three.

Cheers!
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
11,031 points


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