By Evan1984
Sep 5, 2008
| Hey all,
What is your strategy for belaying more than two followers. The obvious answer is two leaders, but this isn't always an option.
I've done three a couple times. I built super bomber 4 and 5 point anchors, and dragged the three up using an ATC guide and a cinch. It worked...slowly and with only minor rope management cursing.
So...what is your plan of attack with three followers??? Any tricks to speed up the ordeal?
Thanks,
Evan |  |
By Chris Sheridan
From Boulder, CO
Sep 5, 2008
| That sounds like a horrible way to spend a day climbing.
If the situation dictates that you just have to have a team of four, try belaying up two of the three people first, one of them trailing a rope for the fourth guy. Then have one of them belay the four guy up while the other belays you on the next pitch. That way you never have to mess with having four peopled hanging out at the same belay. | |
By Jeff Welch
From Lakewood, CO
Sep 5, 2008
| I tell one of them "Sorry, but we already have three people and it becomes extremely cumbersome and slow to have more than that on a multi-pitch climb. How about next weekend?" | |
By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Sep 5, 2008
| What can i say, Jeff... you beat me to it. Crowded anchors, three ropes, one person in a party > three capable of rescue maneuvers, etc. Chris nailed it... I can't see enjoying a day like this.
Buuuut, if there's no talking you out of it, you really only have the options of the multiple autoblock setup you already tried, the one that Chris mentioned or having your followers go one at a time, all but the last hauling the next person's line. Either of the latter two ways allows you to take off after the third climber arrives but i'm going to guess that if your followers aren't willing to lead, that you may not feel comfortable leaving them to keep things in order and clean themselves off the anchors safely after you're gone.
I don't know; ...the more i think about this, the more i wish i could convince you not to do it. Not trying to be a jerk here, just trying to be straightforward.
d | |
By Michael Ybarra
From on the road
Sep 5, 2008
| You need to buy BD's new ATC Gumby, which lets you belay five seconds at the same time. And also please post where you'll be climbing so the rest of us can stay the f away. | |
By Ray Lovestead
From Boulder, CO
Sep 5, 2008
| At the car you conveniently forget the third rope. Then you make them thumb wrestle for who gets to go.
Or. you only bring one rope and have them tie in at intervals. Like multiple fish on a line you are reeling in. Use an alpine butterfly and locking biner for each. Oh, and tell them, "no falling, cause the anchor can't handle all the weight." You are guaranteed to have two of the bail on the whole idea.
| |
By jmeizis
Sep 5, 2008
| I have to deal with this every once and a while. You have two choices. One is to have people tie in at the middle of the rope, but depending on pitch length this can be a hassle for everyone. The way I usually do it is have some people trailing ropes. For example: I lead the pitch with one lead and one trail rope. Belay followers on the two ropes and they trail two ropes to bring up two more followers, or one. The problem comes in rope management, since you have to keep the ropes well managed as they climb and then reflake it so you can lead the next pitch. Using slings to flake the rope into is about the best you can do. Flaking four ropes on your lap will end on a clusterfuck and only if you have a big ledge can you flake it onto the ledge. It's more work than it is fun I wouldn't do it if it weren't my job. | |
By Mark Cushman
From Erie, CO
Sep 5, 2008
| Here's a neat method:
The best thing about this is that it scales! Attach 5 bear paws to the master bear paw, and you can belay up to 25 people at the same time! It helps to be a Hindu deity. | |
By EMT
Sep 5, 2008
| I've lead teams of 3 followers before on 2 half ropes. It's really easy. Just have the least experienced climb on one rope alone, then have the two others on the 2nd rope one ties in 20 feet above the end and then the other ties in to the end. Now climb and belay like normal. Trick it to have your most experienced follower on the bitter end of the 2nd rope. So they can keep the pace right with the person tied in 20 feet above them also, they can get any gear the gumbys can't clean.
Have the single climber/follower climb first then the 2 others behind them. Trick part is quickly getting the last climber on belay with a munter once the first 2 climbers have gotten to the belay... But, it's not hard as long as your quick and the route is right for this style. I wouldn't worry about the anchors needing beefing up? If you're building "ERNEST" anchors they can take all the load 3 folks could generate and then some on top rope.
I learned this from some guide friends and the only thing I can think you might need special for this set up is a longer rope for some routes. Plus long pitches with 3 followers is the way to go! Fewer belays the better. But, that's true with all multi pitch climbs right!
Cheers,
Aj | |
By Tim McCabe
Sep 6, 2008
| Chris Sheridan wrote: That sounds like a horrible way to spend a day climbing. If the situation dictates that you just have to have a team of four, try belaying up two of the three people first, one of them trailing a rope for the fourth guy. Then have one of them belay the four guy up while the other belays you on the next pitch. That way you never have to mess with having four peopled hanging out at the same belay.
I have done this several time in the past and it wasn't that bad. We used the same system Chris describes here so as to never have more than 3 at a station. Best to avoid hanging belays though.
In a party of 3 you can move a lot faster if the seconds simul climb 3 is nearly as fast a 2. Since the leader starts climbing again at about the same rate while the fourth comes up as he is leading. On the right climb with the right climbers 4 can climb as fast as 3 not that much slower than 2.
The only time I ever did this was with fairly experienced seconds.
They had all been belaying (working at a camp with climbing wall) for more than a year and could second comfortably at the level we were climbing. If you have any one in the group who is a unknown experience wise I would look for some thing short to get on. | |
By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 6, 2008
| EMT wrote: I've lead teams of 3 followers before on 2 half ropes. It's really easy. Just have the least experienced climb on one rope alone, then have the two others on the 2nd rope one ties in 20 feet above the end and then the other ties in to the end. Now climb and belay like normal...long pitches with 3 followers is the way to go! Fewer belays the better. But, that's true with all multi pitch climbs right! Cheers, Aj
Hidden in this cheerful prescription is a recipe for an accident---long leads plus belaying on a single half rope = rope-stretch ground falls. If there are hard moves near the ground or near a ledge, there is an excellent chance that even with a tight rope a second (and we seem to be speaking of beginners here) who falls can hit the ledge or ground pretty hard. Given that the belayer is far above, the chances of a tight rope at the instant of a fall are very low, making everything much worse than the description that follows:
If the belayer is 160 feet above and the second falls ten feet up with a tight rope, there will probably be about 15 feet of rope stretch with the ground only ten feet away. It turns out, in this situation, that the impact can be about the same as jumping from five feet up, which is plenty good enough to break an ankle (or worse) if you land wrong. The situation will be considerably worse if, for some reason, the "experienced" climber at the end of the two-person strand falls, thereby pulling off the climber above and so loading the their strand with two body weights.
Readers who think these are a merely theoretical considerations might want to have a look at this accident report over on rc.com.
In my opinion, this is a risky procedure that one might imagine being forced to try in some kind of emergency. Doing it voluntarily, especially with a party of beginners, is a gamble I don't think is justifiable, most especially if the beginners haven't been advised about the risks they are being subjected to. Note that this applies to two beginners, each on a single half-rope strand too. This style of climbing should only be used when the entire party is experienced!
If you insist on doing this, the beginners must be warned that they are essentially bouldering at the start of every pitch, and they had better eliminate "take" from their climbing vocabulary. Moreover, if there are hard moves at the beginning of a pitch with ledge or groundfall potential, then the leader must make every effort to do a very short lead so the seconds are not exposed to severe rope-stretch problems. Of course, the effect of this on the speed of the party can be considerable, and by far the best advice here---spaced-out guiding practices notwithstanding---is Just Say No. | |
By Geir Hundal
From Tucson, AZ
Sep 6, 2008
| daryl-
that's hilarious! | |
By Geir Hundal
From Tucson, AZ
Sep 6, 2008
| rgold wrote: Hidden in this cheerful prescription is a recipe for an accident---long leads plus belaying on a single half rope = rope-stretch ground falls. If there are hard moves near the ground or near a ledge, there is an excellent chance that even with a tight rope a second who falls can hit the ledge or ground pretty hard.
rgold - good point. maybe all followers should be tensioned using a 3:1, 5:1, or 6:1 mechanical advantage prior to climbing, at least for the first 30 feet or so. this could be easily accomplished if the leader was carrying five additional prusik loops and five additional nonlocking carabiners (assuming you were belaying five followers using the cushman bear paw method.)
the other option would be to borrow some autobelay units from the local climbing gym, although they are somewhat heavy and cumbersome to lead with. | |
By Ryan Tuleja
From Arvada, CO
Sep 6, 2008
| This sounds like a good reason to spend a few days of single pitch-cragging. Teach one of those guys to be a competent follower and belayer, then share some of the workload with him. | |
By Josh Brown
Sep 6, 2008
| That sounds like a horrible way to spend a day climbing. quote> | |
By brenta
From Boulder, CO
Sep 9, 2008
| Geir Hundal wrote: rgold - good point. maybe all followers should be tensioned using a 3:1, 5:1, or 6:1 mechanical advantage prior to climbing, at least for the first 30 feet or so.
Humor aside--Daryl's montage is indeed quite funny--a little tension is just what it takes when the follower may fall at the start of a pitch. Here's a plot of the worst height from which to fall while following, and the height of an equivalent free fall, as functions of rope length, with and without a preventive tension of 0.2 kN. The climber has a mass of 80 kg and the effective rope modulus is taken to be 12 kN. The computation is simply based on conservation of energy.
The good news is that you don't need a 3:1 pulley system to apply 0.2 kN. | |
By Josh Squire
From East Boston, MA
Sep 9, 2008
| Evan1984 wrote: Hey all, What is your strategy for belaying more than two followers. The obvious answer is two leaders, but this isn't always an option. I've done three a couple times. I built super bomber 4 and 5 point anchors, and dragged the three up using an ATC guide and a cinch. It worked...slowly and with only minor rope management cursing. So...what is your plan of attack with three followers??? Any tricks to speed up the ordeal? Thanks, Evan
FIrst of all, I would not take more than 2 on a multipitch. For every "beginner" that you are guiding (and I use this term very loosely), you increase the risk. You are better off taking them toproping. If you must take them mulitipitch climbing, then take one or two at a time.
That said, if you do happen to have 4, and the climb is fairly straight up, the fastest way is to lead the pitch and set 2 anchors (1 to belay your 2nd up and a second toprope anchor). Your second climbs up trailing a rope. When he/she gets to the anchor, they attach trailed rope to the top rope anchor and drop it (or lower). 2nd belays leader on the next pitch while 4th belays 3rd on toprope. When 3rd gets to the belay, he/she belays up fourth.
There are a few options in that scenario, but you get the point. One thing about this scenario, however, is that it does not work if you have 1 "experienced" person and 3 beginners. You only need one leader but at least 2 of you should have some multipitch experience.
Josh | |
By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Sep 9, 2008
| This is starting to remind me of that puzzle where you're trying to cross a river with a bag of grain, a chicken and a wolf using a raft only big enough to carry one item across at a time...
...or was it me, a freshly poured Guinness and a flesh eating zombie? Now i can't remember. | |
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