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Geeking out on going light with trad.
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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Jan 11, 2013
Cleo's Needle

Ben B. wrote:
Lets do it, du


I'm probably two weeks out, but I'm in.


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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Jan 11, 2013
Cleo's Needle

JLP wrote:
Or at least compare yourself to them on a known course. Here's the current standard in the trail/ultra/ultralight world for finding out if you're actually fast - or just another wanker... fastestknowntime.proboards.com/







You add nothing of value to this conversation. Seriously.


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By The Ex-Engineer
From UK
Jan 11, 2013

Good thread with some decent replies. I've been toying with similar ideas over the past couple of months.

A few general thoughts about going ultra-light - as mentioned by many the best way is just to take less gear. As such, my definition of a 'ultra light rack' is therefore one that is suitable for relatively easy routes but contains the absolute minimum of gear that can still cover a full range of common placements.

First, the best way to save weight is to use a shorter rope. I am a big fan of single ropes in the 35metre range which can suits a wide variety of routes.

Second, another easy way to go really light is go 'old school' and completely ditch the quickdraws. That probably means ditching medium sized nuts on wire for some on dyneema or high strength cord. If needed, fixed gear can be tied-off or clipped with a single krab.

Third, you can potentially ditch small/medium cams. Nuts and hexes are lighter. DMM Torque nuts sizes 1-3 beat any medium cams hands down in terms of weight at the expense of a smaller range and more fiddly placement. They also beat BD Hexes & WC Rockcentrics having the unique doubled dyneema sling so quickdraws or extensions are never needed. However things change in the large sizes; a Metolius size 8 UL Power Cam (150g, 48.7-77.4mm) is a far better bet than a Torque Nut 4 (146g, 54-72.2mm range).

That gives the following sort of rack which I'm much of the way to sorting out:

Harness - I've got an Edelrid Loopo www.edelrid.de/en/sports/products/harnesses/loopo.html in XS which weighs around 230g. Even better it cost $24 (15) from ebay. Even lighter is the Loopo Light www.edelrid.de/en/sports/products/harnesses/loopo-light.html

Helmet Petzl Meteor III+ at 235g (The Meteor is proven so I'll wait a bit longer for some feedback on the Sirocco at 165g)

Rope - the shortest length possible without necessarily going stupidly thin. Something like 35metres of the new Beal Joker Unicore 9.1mm weighing 1855g.

Carabiners - 10x wiregates and 2x lockers is probably sufficient. I'll probably stick with DMM Phantom wiregates at 26g as I've got a decent number and they are already small enough. I'll also probably go with Phantom screwgates at 43g.

Slings - I'm a massive fan of Mammut Contact 8mm slings, so something like 2x60cm, 1x120cm and 1x180cm. Although not a standard length I like the 180cm length for use at belays.

Cams - A Metolius UL Powercam size 8 weighing 150g (or the Fatcam at 154g). If you want a cheaper option, you could consider a last generation WC Forged Friend size 3.5 at 168grams which actually beats the Helium at 171g.

Hexes - A DMM Torque nut 1 & 2. (The Metolius UL Powercam 8 effectively covers the range of both Torque Nuts 3 & 4)

Nuts - WC Rocks 7,8 & 9 on dyneema (or similar), plus WC Superlight rocks 4, 5 & 6.

Belay - As already mentioned the lightest standard option is probably the Mammut Fuse at 41-43g depending which figures you go on. The DMM Bugette at 24g is far lighter but only really suitable for half ropes. I would love to get my hands on a Snap Cyclops single slot belay device at 26g storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/SlotBlockPages/Sl>>> but they are no longer in production.

Belay Biner - A BD Vapour Lock at 51g is the obvious option. [However I'll probably stick with my current DMM Sentinel Locksafe at 61g as these days I dislike standard screwgates for abseiling use due to too many gates unscrewing themselves.]

Nutkey - Metolius Featherlight at 20g, as already mentioned.

That's about it other than a couple of short 5mm prusiks and possibly a tiny knife and whistle.

All in, that gives personal kit (harness, helmet, belay, HMS, nutkey, prusiks etc.) coming in well under 700g, a basic rack at around 900g and rope at 1855g.

PS For anyone who thinks that rack is too small it is almost exactly what was considered standard for a basic rack in the United Kingdom in the 1980s, and is based in part on information from 'Rock Climbing' by Steve Ashton published in 1987.


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By John Shultz
From Osaka, Japan
Jan 12, 2013
Above the beautifully positioned routes at Makapuu. Oahu, HI.

Brassmonkey wrote:
And I am routinely 4-6% body fat, I have no weight to lose.


While I don't disagree with your general sentiments, almost no one can stay at 4-6% body fat for any length of time. Shooting to stay steady at 9-10% is a reasonable goal though.

[Feel free to look at my profile and say I am soft, like you did with the other cat.]

Cheers from Osaka,

john


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By Brassmonkey
Jan 12, 2013
Brass monkey

John Shultz wrote:
While I don't disagree with your general sentiments, almost no one can stay at 4-6% body fat for any length of time. Shooting to stay steady at 9-10% is a reasonable goal though. john


There are different body types so for some you may be right. But for many many other people maintaining well below 10% is easy. 9-10% for many is just low expectations. In the endurance world (swimming, biking, running, etc) I would say the large majority of professional and most collegiate athletes maintain well below your reasonable idea of 10% year round. I was a personal trainer for quite a few years and did body fat testing, you quickly get an idea of what a body looks like at a certain body fat after a while. Its not an exact science but when done properly the %error is pretty low.

Edit to add: depends on age, obviously gender, and some other factors. For the more serious athlete it is the norm, so there are still lots of people who can hold that %. But for a recreational athlete who doesnt have the same time to dedicate to their respective sport maybe 8-10% is more reasonable.

Re-edit to add: I would agree you are right about 8-10% being reasonable for the average person, but wrong about (males) being able to hold 4-6%, I could find some stats if you need the proof. I was thinking again about it on my bike this morning, haha


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By CalStaben
From Lexington, KY
Jan 12, 2013

I'd like to second that under 9-10% body fat is easily achieved. As a recently retired collegiate swimmer, most of our team is under that body fat percentage and it's routine to see people 5-7%. Though, going as low as 4-5% is often unhealthy and lowers your performance. My peers that run either distance track or cross country typically keep a lower body fat percentage than the swimmers. Unless you devote an inordinate amount of time to training (i.e. 20-30 hours a week like an endurance collegiate athlete), it is quite difficult to get to these percentages.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jan 12, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

I spent a while in a lab testing body fay percentages (among other things) in some very high level athletes; some of the top runners and cyclists in the country. I can tell you that most all athletes underestimate their percentages. My recollection is that 4-6% was out of the ordinary, even in these top-end athletes.


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By Brassmonkey
Jan 12, 2013
Brass monkey

csproul wrote:
I spent a while in a lab testing body fay percentages (among other things) in some very high level athletes; some of the top runners and cyclists in the country. I can tell you that most all athletes underestimate their percentages. My recollection is that 4-6% was out of the ordinary, even in these top-end athletes.



What methods did you use?


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Jan 13, 2013
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

Brassmonkey wrote:
What methods did you use?

Calipers and a hydrostatic tank.


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Jan 13, 2013

I'm no expert but here is my 2.

The hydrostatic tank at my university was too difficult to use. I was training for tri's and had a bmi of 19 so sure I was way skinnier than now, however, we never got an accurate measurement. I measured as high as 60% and as low as negatives (the dial on the scale spun twice). Even with practice, we (the subjects) never got good at exhaling the right amount of air. The best we could do was breathe out until we landed on a weight that would correlate to a % that we'd predetermined with calipers.

The calipers were even worse, some had stretchy skin others had thick juicy skin. I got measured at the university at 2% and weeks later a 24 hour fitness measured me at 22% (along with a sales pitch).

The electrical impedance seemed to only measure hydration. Although if you only used it prior to breakfast every morning, it might at least be something you could make relative goals with.

So argue and talk all you want about who our what you measured. Short of dissection, I don't think you actually know anyone's bodyfat.

As for the gear, no need to buy brand new heavy things but to put a rack together based only on lightness is a waste.


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By Ben Beard
From Superior, AZ
Jan 14, 2013
roo, my only son, the stare that takes down a herd of 'stock

remember to cut all the tags off your cams, harness, shoes, etc!


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By Nate Reno
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Jan 14, 2013
Ellingwood Point Summit, Little Bear in the background.

The Ex-Engineer wrote:
Belay Biner - A BD Vapour Lock at 51g is the obvious option. [However I'll probably stick with my current DMM Sentinel Locksafe at 61g as these days I dislike standard screwgates for abseiling use due to too many gates unscrewing themselves.]

I haven't used the BD VaporLock or Petzl Attache 3D for belaying with yet, but something like: www.metoliusclimbing.com/element_belay_carabiner.html
might be easier to feed the rope over, saving some energy at an expense of ~20g.
I would probably also find some things are worth compromising functionality for weight, but others might not be - the tiny carabiners come to mind. Do you waste more time/energy fiddling w/ tiny biners to make it worth the weight savings. Sometimes things that are a small bit heavier, but make tasks quicker/easier are worth the weight for speed reasons - which I'm pretty sure is what the whole 'lightweight' argument is for in the first place.


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By Ben Beckerich
From saint helens, oregon
Jan 14, 2013
About half way up the East Arete on Illumination Rock

I recently scrapped a bunch of weight myself..

Ditched my Ice Floss twins for a Mammut Serentity
Ditched Camalots for Metolius UL Powercams and TCUs
Ditched Hotwires for Nano 23s (racking) and Photons (draws)
Ditched Positrons for CAMP Orbits
Ditched 6 and 7mm cord for 5mm
Ditched all my screws longer than 13cm for screws 13 or shorter
Ditched all my nylon slings for Mammut Contacts

Still trying to figure out what stoppers would be lightest, but I think that's really getting down to a matter of a few grams. Metolius' nuts seem to be the lightest, but literally only by about 20 grams or something ridiculously unnoticeable

I haven't bothered to add up all the weight savings, but I guarantee you I shaved at least a few LBS. I know the rack feels a hell of a lot lighter, and that's, of course, what counts


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By Jarmland
Jan 14, 2013

Bumping a good thread.

Shaving grams might not necessarily mean you make it or break it but I think it's a fun challenge and it's always nice to carry less. Less Is More.

Just got myself a small digital kitchen scale and I've been weighing some of my stuff. Biggest weight savings still to be made on my rack is updating my old hotwire draws.

Other than that - backpack, sleeping kit, clothes and shoes are major factors that can be made much lighter on my part.

What's on an ultralight "rescue biner"?

I carry a small petzl spatha knife, a piece of prusik cord and a tibloc..


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Jan 14, 2013
OTL

all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:


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By Unassigned User
Jan 14, 2013

Matt N wrote:
all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:


Should probably leave the chalk bag at home, and also replace that shirt with a beanie.


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By TWK
Jan 14, 2013

Matt N wrote:
all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:


And a big set of cojones . . .but they might weigh you down.


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By mugsy
Jan 14, 2013

Ben B. wrote:
...Still trying to figure out what stoppers would be lightest, but I think that's really getting down to a matter of a few grams. Metolius' nuts seem to be the lightest, but literally only by about 20 grams or something ridiculously unnoticeable

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Metolius UL nuts were over 120g lighter than my Omega Pacific 1-13 set and over 100g lighter than DMM 1-11 Wallnuts.

I tried to like the Met UL nuts for a long time, but they just don't work for me.


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By Ben Beckerich
From saint helens, oregon
Jan 14, 2013
About half way up the East Arete on Illumination Rock

Matt N wrote:
all you need are shoes, a chalk bag and a North Face button-up:


shoes are aid


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Jan 15, 2013
OTL

Ben B. wrote:
shoes are aid


Fine.

Nut-free lightweight climbing:


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By The Ex-Engineer
From UK
Jan 16, 2013

Just spotted a new Camp Alp 95 harness (www.camp-usa.com/products/harnesses/alp-95.asp 95g in weight!) for sale cheaply on ebay here in the UK.

Currently trying to tell myself that it is over the top and unnecessary, but on the other hand it would be pretty cool in the terms of being the ultimate in lightweight gear...


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By Bill Sacks
From Sacramento, CA
Jan 17, 2013
Chapel Pond

The Ex-Engineer wrote:
Just spotted a new Camp Alp 95 harness (www.camp-usa.com/products/harnesses/alp-95.asp 95g in weight!) for sale cheaply on ebay here in the UK. Currently trying to tell myself that it is over the top and unnecessary, but on the other hand it would be pretty cool in the terms of being the ultimate in lightweight gear...


The additional weight of the necessary gear sling may be enough to counteract the "benefit" of having a harness this light.


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By Gilamouse
From Barrre, VT
Jan 17, 2013

I am surprised that no one has suggested using the munter hitch to belay instead of a belay device... This would definitely be lighter.


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By bearbreeder
Jan 17, 2013

Matchus wrote:
I am surprised that no one has suggested using the munter hitch to belay instead of a belay device... This would definitely be lighter.


autoblock ... especially where rock fall is a serious concern ... not to mention youd need to biner brake for raps, or rap on a munter which requires a decently large biner

like i said ... theres smart light ... and there stupid light that may save you a marginal weight but takes longer and/or has more faff to deal with

course everyone should know the biner brake and munter anyways ... which means you should have a UL HMS biner and 2 lightweight solid gate biners (or 1 locker if you trust that)


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By The Ex-Engineer
From UK
Jan 17, 2013

Bill Sacks wrote:
The additional weight of the necessary gear sling may be enough to counteract the "benefit" of having a harness this light.


A very good point. The issue of racking had occurred to me and I haven't bid on it yet.


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