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Jan 10, 2013
Brass monkey
JLP wrote:
If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.


Hahahaha, is that on the warning label of said UL gear you've seen or in anything anywhere from any company?
Brassmonkey
Joined Jan 19, 2012
70 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
True, but it's more than that. If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.



Why do you say this? The Camp Nano has a 20Kn rating with the gate closed. A 180 Pound climber, on a 60 meter rope, taking a fall 10 feet out from pro generates less than 10Kn on a STATIC rope... probably more like... what 5Kn or so on a dynamic rope. Make the climber 220, and 80 feet out from pro and you start seeing around 16kn with a static.

That's not to say their not fiddly.... or that you shouldn't replace the slings often...
robrobrobrob
Joined Oct 23, 2012
10 points
Jan 10, 2013
girl40
JLP wrote:
True, but it's more than that. If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.


I was commenting on the skinny slings rather than the biners. I had a few of my Mammut 8mm skinny dyneema slings tested each year for four years and they went from 22kn to 8-10kn dropping about 3kn per year. I discussed this with Mammut and they were emphatic they make those slings for going ultra-lite alpine, not for general trad use. They also emphasized the slings were a consumable item and not meant to be used year after year the way thicker nylon slings are.

As for small biners, I'd be curious as to your assertion they may break easier than 'regular' ones. The KN ratings for my Ange, Spirit, and Helium biners aren't that far off so I'm not sure I'm understanding the risk you are positing.
Healyje
Joined Jan 31, 2006
127 points
Jan 10, 2013
blah
nylon slings are a better buy but were not talking best gear for the dollar... we talking the lowest weight and least durable . i like heilums a lot I have a double set. the Camp Photons are a nice racking biner, not the lightest in general, but at 29grams for full size I would recommend them over the nano or edelrid just because there's nothing more agravating than pumping out getting the clip because that stupid midget biner slid out of your hand twenty times Rob Warden, Space Lizard
From Springdale Ut
Joined Dec 19, 2011
46 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
Calculate this for us: What kind of twisting load will it take? What happens when you clip a fixed mangle that doesn't load the biner like that 12mm dowel in the lab? Now what happens when you shock load the biner with all of these loads and more all at relatively the same instant? How about right after the gate either bounced or was pried open by a crystal of rock? I only have rough guesses based on experience, but in general the more you weigh, the more you fall, the more metal you want in your biners.


Well.. when the biner is more than twice the estimated ratings in the lab.. it really doesn't worry me that much. Most real life falls actually result in less loading, because people slide on the rock, the other slings absorb energy, the belay slips, and.. yes.. people are squishier than static lead weights and some energy is lost there.

As for twisting.. crossloading your biner's not a good thing, maybe only use those on pretty clean routes.

My biggest issue with them is that they have less material, which means any wear by nicks, scratches, rope grooves... that will be amplified over time.

So.. people who weigh more need bigger biners.... that makes me smile.
robrobrobrob
Joined Oct 23, 2012
10 points
Jan 10, 2013
Those of us who weigh over 200lbs like at least a decent open gate strength like 9kN, those 6kN things do nothing for my peace of mind! Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
195 points
Jan 10, 2013
I thought I would add my two cents...

Harness: Of all things you don't want to skimp on is the harness. Yes... lighter is better for most things but having an uncomfortable harness can be a pain in the a$$. I have a BD Aspect after switching from Arcteryx (superlight! but is only great for sport) but at a semi-hanging belay or even a slight amount of weight on the legs all day can be a pain (literally!).

I have the Mammut Contact 8mm Dynema Slings and they rock!

Cams: Metolius is typically lighter but BD C4s have the wider range. I think its a personal preference here. I'm a BD person since I think having wider range is better than saving a few grams.

Belay device: If your going to do multi-pitch, definitely get one which can be operated in guide-mode. I have an ATC guide but the Reverso is way lighter but I have heard that it wears through pretty fast.

Locking biners: I believe that the Wild Country Neon is the lightest.

Non-lockers: I like full size biners thus I have the BD Oz. Everyone I climb with comments on how light they are. Yes they are not as light as the Nanos but they are full size and the newer ones have the hoodwire feature so they don't catch on the slings.

Someone mentioned helmet.... GET ONE! If your doing multi-pitch you should always wear one! I'm not going to lecture because I think it is a personal preference but if do get on the lightest on the market is the Vector by BD. My friend has one and they are way sweet.
Chris Freye
From Seattle
Joined Nov 30, 2012
0 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
Noobs should search the forums for broken biner stories (and accidents) before posting their opinions to this thread.


So how does calling someone names help in your argument? Is it going to make him want to go and look up what you are suggesting he look up? Does it somehow make your argument anymore valid? Do you know for certain that the person the noob comment was directed at really is a noob? Is it possible that he has many years of experience? Even if he is a noob, is it possible that he still has a valid point to make?
Mike Berkow
Joined May 30, 2008
5 points
Jan 10, 2013
Oz biners are not full size. johnthethird
Joined Jan 6, 2012
13 points
Jan 10, 2013
Gunking
JLP wrote:
Noobs should search the forums for broken biner stories (and accidents) before posting their opinions to this thread.


The last one I remember reading was a Petzl Spirit
JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Joined Nov 21, 2009
673 points
Jan 10, 2013
Mashers Tower
yergonnadie Cornelius Jefferson
Joined Apr 5, 2006
163 points
Jan 10, 2013
Brass monkey
JLP wrote:
Noobs should search the forums for broken biner stories (and accidents) before posting their opinions to this thread.



Pot calling the kettle black?

Tell us how many of these stories you can find please. It does happen no doubt, but often due to extraneous cirumstances or user error. Find us stories that had nothing to do with these and are simply biners that failed due to the forces applied to it.

It is irresponsible to spray others with misinformation you concocted by yourself without scientific testing or data to back yourself up. That is more noob than someone not being arrogant and trying to learn about the actual forces and science invloved.

"Yo dude, guess what I heard..."
"No way!! I'm never doing _______ again"
Brassmonkey
Joined Jan 19, 2012
70 points
Jan 10, 2013
Reading JLP's previous replies will convince you he's entitled to his own opinion and you're entitled to his opinion as well.
Basically a waste of binary input.
TWK
Joined Sep 15, 2012
164 points
Jan 10, 2013
Espresso @ New Jack City
Lightest lockers: bogley.com/forum/showthread.ph...

Top 10: (KL is keylock)
Trango Superfly - 41g - 24Kn
DMM Phantom KL - 41.5g - 23kN
CAMP Photon KL - 42g - 21kN
Kong Argon KL - 42g - 22kN
Austrialpin Micro Magic Screwlock - 42g - 22kN
Wild Country Neon KL - 42.5g - 24kN
Mad Rock SuperTech KL - 43g - 24kN
Edelrid Pure KL - 43g - 23kN
Metolius Bravo KL - 43.5g - 24kN
ClimbTech Superlight KL - 44g - 24kN
T.J. Esposito
From San Diego, CA
Joined May 3, 2011
161 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
If you weigh more than, say, 150 lbs with the rack in the OP and climb at a level where you take a lot of falls, those biners are likely to break quite often. The loads that gear will see outside are not like the loads they see in the lab where they rate them. If you weigh, say, over 180 or so, I'd say such ultralight gear is not a good idea for you.


I'd like to know what your definition of "quite often" is. I think I've only seen a handful of carabiner failure stories, and as far as I remember they were all sport climbing situations where they got hung up weird on the hanger or something. I don't remember any of those failures being ultralight biners in trad situations. If you break a biner while trad climbing, the most likely reason is that you screwed up on your gear placement.

Of all the gear used when trad climbing, I'm least concerned about my biners. If you think biners fail "quite often", I wonder what term you'd use to quantitatively describe how often other pro fails to hold (which happens far more often than biners breaking).
Ian Stewart
Joined May 17, 2010
166 points
Jan 10, 2013
Biners: Edelrid Nineteen-G (www.mec.ca will have them in stock in the spring)

Cams: Wild Country Zeros for the smallest sizes, then Metolius TCUs or Black Diamond X4s (once they come out in late spring), then Metolius Mastercams, then DMM Dragons for the bigger sizes, the Trango Big Bros for sizes beyond

Nuts: Those plastic nuts that Gear4Rocks make

Nut Tool: Metolius Feather

Belay Device: The Mammut Fuse is 41 grams

Locking Biner: The Grivel Plume is 37 grams.

Helmet: The Petzl Sirocco will be the lightest rock climbing helmet on the market once it comes out in the spring.
Khoi
From Vancouver, BC
Joined Oct 12, 2009
15 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
lmgtfy.com/?q=broken+biner These noob threads are the plague.



"About 93,500 results (0.20 seconds)
Did you mean: broken boner "

LOLz.
Will S
From Joshua Tree
Joined Nov 15, 2006
1,275 points
Jan 10, 2013
JLP wrote:
lmgtfy.com/?q=broken+biner These noob threads are the plague.


I still prefer noobs to overwhelmingly false statements. If you want to provide a link, how about you give us one that backs up your claim that light biners break "quite often". Or perhaps one that disputes my assumption that most failures are due to incorrect use or freak accidents.

Here's a link where Kolin Powick, director of Global Quality for Black Diamond since 2002, says "Iíve seen and/or heard of only a handful of carabiners that have broken in the field in my time as Director of Global Quality at Black Diamond, and most have broken in the same way: nose hooked."

blackdiamondequipment.com/en-u...

So the quality control director for the last 10+ years at BD says he only knows of a "handful" of failed biners, most of which failed due to incorrect use, or you have JLP, troll of MP since 2007, saying that they break "quite often" and that a 30lb climber weight difference could be to blame. Hmm....who should I believe!?!?
Ian Stewart
Joined May 17, 2010
166 points
Jan 10, 2013
Lightest Belay with Guide-Mode: Seems to be the Reverso-4 at 59 Grams.


Anyone ever use the Kong Ghost! 63-grams? It looks bomber!
Sandy Crimp
Joined Jan 3, 2013
47 points
Jan 10, 2013
Brass monkey
JLP wrote:
lmgtfy.com/?q=broken+biner These noob threads are the plague.



Alright you fucking wanker, I'm bored and can't climb due to an injury so here goes you slag:

Your Google list top 5.

1. This was an improperly rigged 50kn biner being used for tree cutting work where a large section of tree was being lowered with it. Do you know how much wood weighs? Its about as dense as your head.

2. A supertopo thread with a picture of the failed biner. It looks exactly like a nose hook failure. (that's called user error) Read:

blackdiamondequipment.com/en-u...

3. A supertopo thread about people who have broken biners in various ways, no pics, no explanations, just a few first but mostly secondhand stories. Most stated it was due to the gate opening. Not one was mentioned as a lightweight biner.

4. The exact url I just cited in #2, shit son.

5. rc.com thread about an extremely worn through biner that broke. Again...user error.

So what would a "noob" have learned from your post?

1. never use 50kn biners when climbing, they have been known to break!
2. never nose hook a biner
3. dont misuse biners or they will break, especially with gates open
4. Edumucate yourself my dear watson!
5. Never climb on biners worn all the the way through
6. If you googled broken biner, its highly probable you meant broken boner.

Hmmmm, where was all the info and threads about lightweight biners breaking "quite frequently"? It doesnt exist.

Bugger off.
Brassmonkey
Joined Jan 19, 2012
70 points
Jan 10, 2013
It would be useful to compare the weight of your dream rack to a standard rack. PRRose
From Boulder
Joined Feb 11, 2006
2 points
Jan 10, 2013
Here's a few ideas that I don't think have been mentioned yet. Some of these things are not always a good idea, but may help sometimes. A lighter pack, titan cord if you carry cord, DMM aloy offsets instead of a full rack of nuts sometimes, depending on the climb you might be able to rack 2 cams to a biner, small head lamp, lithium batteries, less water. Don't carry 2 of something between you and your partner if you can safely get by with one. Superclimber
Joined Mar 7, 2009
1,486 points
Jan 11, 2013
Rob Warden, Space Lizard wrote:
dragons are way lighter untill you get to the the 1 camolot then its meh.



This appears incorrect.

Blue: BD .3 71gm; DMM 00 75gm-- Advantage BD by 4 Grams
Silver: BD .4 83gm; DMM 0 85gm-- Advantage BD by 3 Grams
Purple: BD. 5 97gm; DMM 1 97gm-- Equal; but advantage to DMM due to longer sling.

Sizes .75, 1 and 2 (BD Sizes) is where Dragons shine!

Green: BD .75 116gm; DMM 106gm-- Advantage DMM 10 Grams
Red: BD 1 124gm; DMM 119gm-- Advantage DMM 15 Grams
Yellow: BD 2 158gm; Dmm 148gm-- Advantage DMM 10 Grams

DMM maintains there advantage on Blue (BD3) and Grey (BD4) by 6 and 2 grams each.

So dragons only really have a discernable difference for BD sizes .75, 1 & 2.

It seems that Metolius Power UL Cams wins the light game except for BD size 3 & 4 which are bigger than their range.
Sandy Crimp
Joined Jan 3, 2013
47 points
Jan 11, 2013
vertebrae roof
johnthethird: "walk more? Are you sure about that? Seems to me, and Im pretty sure its been tested (though dont ask me where) that a single axle unit is going to walk less than a double axle piece. Things just rotate and swivel, rather than walking."


Yeah look at size and shape and length then use each a bunch and talk to me about which walk more on you. I just clip em w mini draw almost always
JMo
From Tucson, AZ
Joined Jan 12, 2009
1,007 points
Jan 11, 2013
OTL
PRRose wrote:
It would be useful to compare the weight of your dream rack to a standard rack.


...vs the weight of your morning movement. Then break it down in $/gram.
Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Joined Oct 20, 2010
501 points


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