Garda knot

Suppose you just finished the last pitch of your grade III climb. You start to set up your belay and you drop your auto blocking belay device (petzl reverso, or BD guide). Could you use the garda knot the same way you would use the reverso or guide atc to belay your partner?

stephen crimin wrote:Suppose you just finished the last pitch of your grade III climb. You start to set up your belay and you drop your auto blocking belay device (petzl reverso, or BD guide). Could you use the garda knot the same way you would use the reverso or guide atc to belay your partner?

hmmm... possibly. However, the Garda Knot is kind of finicky and not the most reliable. How well it functions is largely a function of the carabiner you use. See below and click the full-page link so you can read the comments. I would use the Munter if it was me in that scenario.

youtube.com/watch?v=ga47t2m…

It can be virtually impossible to release a loaded Garda knot (e.g. to lower your partner). Learn the Munter Hitch instead. Really.

Agree with above. I have used the garda (alpine clutch) but not for std belay as described (only for emergency hauling/crevasse training). I would use the munter.

+1 for the Munter.

I use it 75% of the time for the second (my wife), the rest of the time the situation calls for a belay off the harness.

You can use a prusik to back up your munter, too.

John Peters wrote:You can use a prusik to back up your munter, too.

No offense, but, that would be retarded. Do you think you should back up your atc with a prussic?

use the autoblocking variation of the munter

;)

Greg D wrote: No offense, but, that would be retarded. Do you think you should back up your atc with a prussic?

No, but Munters are significantly more slippery than ATCs, especially when it comes to lowering.

michaeltarne wrote: No, but Munters are significantly more slippery than ATCs, especially when it comes to lowering.

I'm pretty sure you just made that up. The Munter hitch provides more braking amplification than any tube belay device.

I'll second Danny on that one. Not only false, but what do you think is different/worse in lowering than belaying? You saying that steady lowering is more slippery than the sudden shock load of a belay catch? Better revisit your thoughts on this one Michael.

Here's the best of all worlds: Autoblocking Munter!

Autoblocking Munter

climbing.com/skill/munter-m…

Tricks of the Trade

The “Auto-Blocking” Munter: Clip a biner through the weighted strand and left side of the bight coming from the loaded strand (i.e., the left side of the Munter’s smile shape). This will prevent the knot from flipping, thus creating an auto-blocking system. To test it, pull on the brake-hand side — the rope should run smoothly; now pull the climber (weighted) side — it should block immediately. This is also good if you need to bring up two people on separate ropes—put the two separate lines in two separate lockers to create your two auto-blocking Munters.

Caroline George (carolinegeorge.blogspot.com) is an AMGA Alpine and Rock certified guide; she guides in the US and Europe. She’s also an athlete for First Ascent, Petzl, SCARPA and Julbo.

The autoblocking Munter can't be released under load either, and it's slow and awkward to feed any slack out even when the knot isn't loaded. So all told, neither it nor the Garda are good choices for an upper belay if there is any chance that the second can fall and then have trouble unweighting the rope.

An autoblocking upper belay is a convenience, not a necessity. If you drop your plate (or even if you don't), use a Munter if you want to belay off the anchor.

If you just have to have an autolocking upper belay, the idea of putting a ratcheting prussik on the load strand underneath the Munter is actually very functional, the scorn heaped on the idea above notwithstanding. But not if you use a prussik, which is much too hard to loosen. Instead use an autoblock knot, which had the advantage that you can break its lock under load---this is why that knot is typically used for rappel back-ups.

With some clever rigging, you can get the autoblock knot to collide with the Munter biner and release when rope is taken in, while nonetheless grabbing if the rope tries to run out. But the knot is also easily managed with the non-brake hand if you put it on a two-foot sling to allow the non-brake hand to pull in slack and manage the knot.

rgold wrote:The autoblocking Munter can't be released under load either, and it's slow and awkward to feed any slack out even when the knot isn't loaded.

you can release it under load

- use a larger biner for the actual munter
- use a smaller biner for the lock
- to release simply unclip the strand from the biner lock ... even under load you should be able to shimmy the rope out
- the small biner will now rotate through the large biner and the munter works normally

i rarely feed out slack out of autoblocks ... its not exactly easy using a reverso/guide either ... and even if you needed to ... just take off the biner lock

;)

Good point about the small biner---I didn't set it up with a small biner when I played with the knot after it appeared in the R&I article.

Still, it seems like it might be pretty hard to get that biner unclipped from a fully loaded rope, but I'll take your word for it...

Mark Pilate wrote:I'll second Danny on that one. Not only false, but what do you think is different/worse in lowering than belaying? You saying that steady lowering is more slippery than the sudden shock load of a belay catch? Better revisit your thoughts on this one Michael.

I was just speaking from experience. After doing some research, you guys are right, Munter hitches do hold right about the same as tube devices. I guess I have always felt that lowering a second with a Munter felt like there was less friction than I'm used to (and for whatever it's worth the AMGA does too.)

michaeltarne wrote: No, but Munters are significantly more slippery than ATCs, especially when it comes to lowering.

Funny and wrong.

Edit: wrong is a strong word. A better answer would have been it depends. Rope properties such as diameter and cleanliness, play a major role in friction scenarios. YMMV

rgold wrote:Good point about the small biner---I didn't set it up that way when I played with the knot after it appeared in the R&I article. Still, it seems like it might be pretty hard to get that biner unclipped from a fully loaded rope, but I'll take your word for it...

if you tie off the brake end of the munter and use BOTH hands to work it ... its not bad ... easier with thinner, supple ropes than stiff cable wires of course

no worse than setting up lower off a reverso/guide IMO ...

;)

michaeltarne wrote: I was just speaking from experience. After doing some research, you guys are right, Munter hitches do hold right about the same as tube devices. I guess I have always felt that lowering a second with a Munter felt like there was less friction than I'm used to (and for whatever it's worth the AMGA does too.)

youre not absolutely "wrong" despite what MPers say ...

consider that
- most people lower off an ATC with a RE-DIRECT ...
- most people lower off a munter DIRECT

the increase in friction from the redirect is noticeable ...

now if you were lowering straight off yr harness with an ATC ... thats a different story =P

munters are not considered adequate for heavy rescue loads by themselves lowering ... which is why the monster munter was invented ...

OTH hand for bringing up a normal second ... or even catching a lead fall with a fixed point belay they are considered adequate ... with the caveat of gloves for the fixed point belay

ACMG fixed point belay....

vimeo.com/44869774

;)

It's funny when someone says "no offence" they almost always say something deliberately offensive.

Mike J. wrote:It's funny when someone says "no offence" they almost always say something deliberately offensive.

A former commanding officer brought that up once. She said, "If you ever speak to me in disagreement and you say 'no offense,' you better think long and hard about what you say after those words unless you want to clean the shiters for the rest of your naval career."