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Gaining endurance with only a small steep woody

Original Post
Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791

Here in NC there are a ton of moderate routes that require lots of endurance. I'm talking steep jug hauls as easy as 5.7. My problem is I lack the endurance to get into the grades I feel i should be climbing. I've even hung on a 5.8. I normally climb trad in the nines and low tens comfortably. I have 8 foot wide by 11 foot long wall a little steeper than 30deg in my garage w/ lots of jugs and want to work on my endurance. I also have hang board at the top of it. I'm sure this has been asked before but I did a search to no avail. I understand the basics of gaining endurance but on a short wall that steep I'm not sure where to start. up and down laps? 4X4's? Anyone have any pointers or links to threads where this has been discussed?

Chris Horton · · St. George, UT · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 327

I'm sure someone will tear it apart and try to make me look stupid, but I have a similar walll and saw good results doing this:

-Warm up as you usually do.

Circuit Pyramids:

10 Moves
1 minute rest

20 Moves
2 minute rest

30 Moves
3 minute rest

40 moves
4 minute rest

50 moves
5 minute rest

And then repeat in the opposite order (decending 40-30-20-10)

It is rare that I have much left after that workout, but I am a mere human. You can alter the difficulty by restricting the hands and feet that you use. I usually only use small holds for the feet. It's also a good way for me to concentrate on my breathing, footwork and movement.

4x4's are good but don't seem to give me much endurance.

Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791

Thanks Chris. I know I cant do that many moves on a wall this steep but I get the idea.

So would you agree that the idea is to hang on after you are super pumped? and do it again before you fully recover from the pump? Any other basic principles that I can benefit from?

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

Do you do much cardio? Running on your off days will help strengthen legs and core and shed some weight to make it easier to haul your butt to the top.

Remember to breath, I used to always forget especially at the crux.

Richard Dower · · Overland Park, KS · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

I train mainly for endurance since I am of the older generation. It would be good to have your wall a little less steep so you can stay on longer. I have a slightly overhanging wall, 8 ft x 8 ft, with mostly smallish holds (no real jugs). But, I have a line of pinches in one area, a line of sidepulls about 4 feet apart lined up facing out and lots of small crimps and slopers. My main workout is 1 minute on, one minute off for 10 sets. I will focus on going up and down the pinches for one set, up and down just the side pulls for another and then sprinkle in a crimp set or sloper set. Have a few larger holds to grab quick rests but try desperately to stay on for the full minute. Another great endurance workout is to hang rock rings away from the wall. Place your feet on the wall about waist height and then to 1 min on, 1 min off, 2 min on, 2 min off, etc up to 4 minutes then back down. Move from hold to hold on the rock rings but try not to use the top. Do an occasional pull up or pull through and touch the wall with one hand.

I use this along with 2 hangboard workouts a week for about 20 minutes per session.

Results measured by results for me and my wife in the 24 hours of horseshoe hell (and the 12 hour comp the day before)

12 Hour - 64 pitches each. 12 5.10a, 8 5.10b, 10 5.10c, 2 5.10d, 18 5.9, 14 5.8 and under.

24 Hour - wife did 134 pitches 40 of which were trad, me 126 pitches 36 of which were trad.

Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791
Meme Guy wrote:Do you do much cardio? Running on your off days will help strengthen legs and core and shed some weight to make it easier to haul your butt to the top. Remember to breath, I used to always forget especially at the crux.
I do run some. My goal is to get back to 2-3 hour long runs a week. 7 ish miles. yes I'm about 10 lb over my ideal weight so I am also working on that.
Richard Dower · · Overland Park, KS · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

Local muscular endurance that you get from climbing and working on a woody is not the same as cardio endurance. I do cardio 3 to 4 times a week but it does nothing for your forearm pump other than make your overall metabolism more efficient at removing waste products when you are resting and allows you to recover faster between burns. We also use the auto-belays at Red Rock Climbing Center to do either 4x4s or a route every 2 or 3 minutes for an hour. My best is 44 routes in 60 minutes that are all 9's, 10's and 11's. It took some time to build up to that but you find that you get very efficient with your climbing and learn to relax and conserve your energy. Technique improves as your volume increases since you are really forced to climb smooth and relaxed or you won't progress.

Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791
Mike McKinnon wrote: Are you sure endurance is your problem? I have many friends that blame everything on endurance since they fail when they are pumped. If you are climbing in the 10s on trad then technique is problem your problem and not endurance. Just a thought. Another thought is to use your woody to train strength and PE. As you get stronger your endurance will increase as well. Personally, it sounds like a technique issue to me.
Mike I appreciate your input. Though the hardest routes I've sent are the techiest. If there is another problem lurking, I would have to admitt that my gear placing efficiency, in some of the convoluted cracks around here, is more of a problem. When you get up in some areas like Air Show (oldschool 8+) or Dopey Duck and have trouble finding a good piece right before the crux it can be an issue. If you are not familiar with these routes they are technically easy (especially Dopey Duck) routes with "long sections of slightly overhanging sections where it can be hard to find adequate rests. Okay enough saving face, the question was how to gain endurance on a short wall. I'm always striving for both, better technique, and gear efficiency.
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
Adam Paashaus wrote: I do run some. My goal is to get back to 2-3 hour long runs a week. 7 ish miles. yes I'm about 10 lb over my ideal weight so I am also working on that.
When the great Muhammad Ali was asked how many sit-ups he did, he responded, “I don’t count my sit-ups. I only start counting when it starts hurting. That is when I start counting, because then it really counts. That’s what makes you a champion.”
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

Training for beginners 90% of the time means mileage on lead, not 4x4s, hangboarding or laps on a small woody. My grandmother has the strength for many 5.7/easy ones, its all about the head. Maybe getting strong enough to do 5.11 will help you on the steep 5.7s but I have seen some damn strong gym climbers/boulderers flail numerous times when they get on the rock to lead something.

Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791
MJMobes wrote:Training for beginners 90% of the time means mileage on lead, not 4x4s, hangboarding or laps on a small woody. My grandmother has the strength for many 5.7/easy ones, its all about the head. Maybe getting strong enough to do 5.11 will help you on the steep 5.7s but I have seen some damn strong gym climbers/boulderers flail numerous times when they get on the rock to lead something.
I feel I'm being misunderstood again. I'm not a new climber, or a beginner. I'm simply looking for advice to gain endurance on a steep woody. Look at my ticks. In no way am I tooting my horn... 10's are nothing to brag about but I've been around a while (dozen years) and have little anxiety about getting on the sharp end.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Adam Paashaus wrote: I feel I'm being misunderstood again. I'm not a new climber, or a beginner. I'm simply looking for advice to gain endurance on a steep woody. Look at my ticks. In no way am I tooting my horn... 10's are nothing to brag about but I've been around a while (dozen years) and have little anxiety about getting on the sharp end.
just saying, once you are relaxed on the steep jugs you'll find they dont require much extra strength. From my own experience of learning to climb on low angle granite and then being introduced to steep limestone jug hauls I was psyched to actually *have* hand holds. I'm saying any amount of time on the steep woody is good BUT its the mileage that counts at that level, probably all the way to 5.11-.

of course 75% of all climbing is in the head, at least for me.
camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
MJMobes wrote:Training for beginners 90% of the time means mileage on lead, not 4x4s, hangboarding or laps on a small woody.
I agree. If the original poster is hanging on 5.8, it's likely that this is a technique issue, not a strength issue. He needs to get more time on the rock, not jump into a home gym. Lots of solo toproping can build the skills he needs pretty quickly.
Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791
camhead wrote: I agree. If the original poster is hanging on 5.8, it's likely that this is a technique issue, not a strength issue. He needs to get more time on the rock, not jump into a home gym. Lots of solo toproping can build the skills he needs pretty quickly.
I have only ever hung on one 8+ in my life. 1st time I climbed it I onsighted, second time I had gear placing "issues" and pumped out and 1 hung. That 8+ (air show) has been called a 10 by many. Have you been on it??? While I'm not claiming to be perfect, I promise that technique is not the issue, its my saving grace. Seriously, I am just looking to gain endurance, not be over-analyzed and judged so you can feel superior.

closest crag is an hour away and I have 2 kids that limit the option of running laps. However, I have a woody in my garage.
Adam Paashaus · · Greensboro, NC · Joined May 2007 · Points: 791
MJMobes wrote: just saying, once you are relaxed on the steep jugs you'll find they dont require much extra strength. From my own experience of learning to climb on low angle granite and then being introduced to steep limestone jug hauls I was psyched to actually *have* hand holds. I'm saying any amount of time on the steep woody is good BUT its the mileage that counts at that level, probably all the way to 5.11-. of course 75% of all climbing is in the head, at least for me.
The comment about being relaxed is legitimate. I know that can be an issue. I think I do pretty well with that generally. I also agree mileage helps but I don't get enough time outside to get in lots of mileage right now.
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

You asked about endurance so I'll let the others postulate about technique deficiencies and actually answer your question. The best way to improve endurance is to be on the wall long periods of time. For me, I up and down climb for 20 minutes, with a 20 minute break, and then up and down for another 20 minutes. I have seen massive endurance gains with this simple plan. For me it is easier, since I have access to a gym with auto belays allowing me to up and down climb a variety of different route types and grades. With a small woody, the trick will be adjusting the angle and the size of the holds so that you get pumped, but not so pumped you can't make it through the 20 minute set. Of course, since you are working with a much smaller space, it will be boring since the variety of movement will be limited but this is the most effective way to train endurance in my experience. It doesn't happen after 2 sessions but I usually do 4-5 sessions a week (2x20) and I started to see obvious improvement within 2-3 weeks.

William Sonoma · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 3,550

The birdman says: ...up and down climb for 20 minutes, with a 20 minute break, and then up and down for another 20 minutes. I have seen massive endurance gains with this simple plan.

+1. I second that as I aim for 20-30 minutes ("practicing" resting but continually move when able) on a wall at a time, rest, then another go, etc. Its brilliantly simple and fits my simple way of training well.

Note: I climb on a wall where I can stay at "cruiser" difficulty but have the option to throw in harder moves when I like. This is nice and allows me to tailor my training to my mood/energy BUT im still climbing endurance regardless my mood/energy.

gf9318 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 0

Read about ARCing

Richard Dower · · Overland Park, KS · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

Another think to keep the pump factor low is straight arms. I don't mean just when resting, but also when moving. Learn to move from holds without bending your arms by extending from the shoulder. It is easy to learn on a woody you describe with big holds. Also, drop knees are your friend for getting better rests and getting your hips closer to the wall for energy conservation.

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Adam Paashaus wrote: While I'm not claiming to be perfect, I promise that technique is not the issue, its my saving grace. Seriously, I am just looking to gain endurance....
Camhead's point about technique is actually legitimate, although perhaps not in the way that he intended. If you are solid at NC 5.10, there is no doubt that your footwork and technical slab skills are excellent. However, there may be another set of techniques that you are missing, and that likely includes the skills necessary to rest on steep terrain. There seems to be this idea that slabby and vert routes are primarily about technique, while pumpy steep routes are primarily about physical strength/endurance. Really not necessarily true. A few further points about this:

First is that I don't think that climbing "endurance" is really a thing. True endurance routes, where you have to persevere over constantly hard terrain for over 100 feet without any substantial rests, are vanishingly rare. Sure, they have them in Spain. And yes, a perfectly straight splitter at a bad size in Indian Creek falls into this category too. Perhaps some routes at the Red too. But anywhere else, these sorts of routes aren't common. There are super tech routes, power route, power endurance routes, and power endurance + recovery routes. It is this last category that we mistakenly think of as endurance routes. I can almost guarantee, even without seeing the route, that the routes that you are falling on have rests that you may not be finding, or may not be using properly. You need the power endurance to get through the hard bits between the rests, and then the ability to recover at those rests. If you have a 2-hand jug and decent footholds, and the rock is less than 45 degrees overhanging, you should be able to get nearly full recovery. Getting to be able to do this is partly physiological adaptation (i.e. ARCing to get the capillarity to flush the toxins out of the forearms), but largely technical and mental.

I genuinely think that one the biggest thing things that most 5.10/5.11 climbers need to do to improve their steep climbing ability is to learn resting technique. This may or may not apply to you, but I bet it does to some degree. You probably already have the power-endurance to get between the rests...you just need to be able to utilize the rests. (just speculating)

The good news is that your 30 degree woody is a perfect place to work on this. You can work on the physical, mental, and technical sides of recovery all at the same time. FInd a nice 2 handed jug with gentle texture and a smooth radius (you don't want skin pain to be a limiting factor). Find some decent but not gigantic feet to go with it...have enough footholds that you have various foot position options. Now hang on the jug for 20 minutes. Shake out as needed. Try to get comfortable...use as little energy as possible. Use various holds and try out backsteps, heel hooks, etc. Try to hang on with as little force as possible. Listen to podcasts so you don't get stupid bored. At the end of 20 minutes, you should not be pumped. You are not trying to "pump yourself up" here; you are learning to be efficient. Next do the same thing with a slightly smaller jug, then a flat shelf, then a pair of 2 pad crimps, and so on. Learn that you can hang out on these small holds on steep terrain.

After a few sessions of this, now that you are comfortable, work on just just hanging out but actually recovering from pump. Climb up and down and in circles on the wall for 5-15 minutes and get pumped, then return to a rest jug and try to recover. The initial 2 minutes on the rest jug is the hardest, because you have to force yourself to calm down and lower the heart rate. Work on this. Avoiding panic while pumped is hard...especially when exposure and runouts come into play. The correct level of excitement when climbing long steep routes is to be barely awake. After getting de-pumped, step of the wall, chill for a while, and then do it again. Each time, get yourself a bit more pumped...see how close you can get to pumping off and still be able to recover. Also, try the same exercise on smaller rest jugs. The final step is to start enchaining these sessions together without stepping off the wall. Get pumped...then recover...then climb again and get pumped...then recover.

With a bit of work, you should be able to rest and recover on just about any hold on just about any 5.10a.
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

Great post JCM!

Adam Paashaus wrote:I have only ever hung on one 8+ in my life. 1st time I climbed it I onsighted, second time I had gear placing "issues" and pumped out and 1 hung. That 8+ (air show) has been called a 10 by many. Have you been on it??? While I'm not claiming to be perfect, I promise that technique is not the issue, its my saving grace. Seriously, I am just looking to gain endurance, not be over-analyzed and judged so you can feel superior.
If you were able to onsight it the first time, you obviously have the physical "endurance" to do it again. But the second time you fumbled your technique somewhere and failed...maybe spent too much time fiddling with a poor placement, or not resting enough, who knows.

Nobody is "over analyzing" or judging you to "feel superior", they're just calling it as it is. A grade doesn't mean shit if your technique isn't up to par for the climb, and something like slab technique doesn't translate to overhang technique, where efficiency is key. I have more strength or physical endurance than many of my climbing partners, some of whom probably couldn't even do one pullup anymore, but they walk up things that give me trouble because they know what they're doing. Similarly, I climb with guys who boulder WAY harder shit than me (including long endurance traverses), yet when we hop on a rope we're climbing about the same grades since I've spent more time clipping bolts and learning how to do it efficiently (which is something you never do on a boulder).
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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