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Fixed biner position at both ends of draw?

Original Post
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100

For reachy clips, it's nice to use the stiff end of the draw to clip the bolt. And at 5'6", I deal with a lot of reachy clips.

What would the drawbacks be of making both ends stiff (but keeping the draw flexible in the middle)? I'm guessing this could lead to weird weighting of one of the biners under weird circumstances, but my imagination is failing me...

Mark R · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

Some discussion here:

mountainproject.com/v/why-s…

and relevant answer from 20kn:

20 kN wrote: Second, the rope end biner of a draw is almost always fixed to the dogbone someway to enable easy clipping. It is not recommended, but not a death sentence, to clip the fixed end of a draw to the bolt. The reason being is that if you clip the rope end to the hanger, rope drag can flip the biner around causing it to come unclipped from the hanger. That is the reason why manufacturers do not fix the rope end of the biner to the dogbone. But in reality, it is hard for this to happen. I used to climb with fixed biners on both sides of my draws before I learned about this issue and unfixed the bolt side. For two years I climbed that way and never had a biner come unclipped. However, you do increase the risk of it coming unclipped if you use a fixed biner on the bolt side, so it is not recommended. Lastly, there is nothing inherently unsafe about using a bent gate biner on a bolt. The issue is using the rope side biner on the bolt. But, if for some reason you want to use bent gates on both sides of your draw, you could. Just dont mix them up, use one for the bolt side and the other for the rope side. edit: It is also more likely for a biner that is terminated short to the draw to get crossloaded and pinched in a hanger.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

I have personally seen draws get rotated up and unclip themselves. That's enough for me never to fix the bolt end biner.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Gunkiemike wrote:I have personally seen draws get rotated up and unclip themselves. That's enough for me never to fix the bolt end biner.
Me too. Once. Out of the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of bolts that I and my respective partners have clipped. I'd say the odds are with you that you're not going to get hurt because of a quickdraw unclipping itself.

Assuming we are talking about sport climbing, there are usually only a few places on the route where an extra long fall could cause injury anyway. Most of the time, you could skip a bolt, take a fall, and not even notice.

@Phil: If you are looking for a stiff draw, I'd recommend getting a few of the longer Petzl Dogbones and buying a few extra "Petzl Strings." Put the strings on both ends of the doggones and voila, you have a stiff draw that will reach bolts that are out of your reach.

I'll say, however, that clipping over your head is a bad habit to develop. You will begin to focus on the next bolt before the natural time for you to clip it. This means awkward clipping stances on not so great holds, with A LOT more rope out than you might think. Much safer to do another move or two and clip at your shoulder or even waist.

Cheater draws are for new projects… NOT on sighting.
Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

If one pinches the end of the draw tightly one can "fix" biner so to be able to clip the bolt. This adds a couple of inches to your reach. I have done that when needed and works just as good as clipping using the fixed end.

As said above, it is possible to climb above a bolt and find that the clip is much much easier. That is pretty much the normal for placing ice screws.

Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100

Interesting stuff; thanks.

So the concern is that fixing the bolt-end biner turns the dogbone into a lever that can more easily flop the biner into a crossloaded position or a position in which it unclips itself from the hanger. Obviously, the stiffer the draw and the less freedom the rope-end biner has, the greater the risk.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Phil Esra wrote:Interesting stuff; thanks. So the concern is that fixing the bolt-end biner turns the dogbone into a lever that can more easily flop the biner into a crossloaded position or a position in which it unclips itself from the hanger. Obviously, the stiffer the draw and the less freedom the rope-end biner has, the greater the risk.
when you get up to the draw after clipping it with a stiff one ... put a second opposed one and youll be absolutely and utterly fine

of course you dont do this on every bolt, but only on the one or two on a route where it matters ... and keep only one or two draws with both end fixed, preferably long stiff ones

it really is THAT simple ...

or you can spend $$$$ and buy one of these



kong.it/pr_qklk.htm

;)
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100

So... after thinking about this some more and staring at clipped draws...

It makes sense that the stiffer the draw, the more likely the bolt-side biner is going to get jostled.

But if you've got one fixed biner and one free biner on a given draw, does it really matter which end you use for the bolt and which for the rope? (assuming you do it the same way consistently to avoid running rope over notched biner...)

Seems like you've got the same amount of "freedom" between rope and bolt, regardless of which end is floppier--not true?

David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
Phil Esra wrote:So... after thinking about this some more and staring at clipped draws... It makes sense that the stiffer the draw, the more likely the bolt-side biner is going to get jostled. But if you've got one fixed biner and one free biner on a given draw, does it really matter which end you use for the bolt and which for the rope? (assuming you do it the same way consistently to avoid running rope over notched biner...) Seems like you've got the same amount of "freedom" between rope and bolt, regardless of which end is floppier--not true?
For purposes of clipping the rope into the draw, having the rope end stiff, and the rock end floppy works better than the reverse -- the clip is easier to achieve.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Phil Esra wrote:But if you've got one fixed biner and one free biner on a given draw, does it really matter which end you use for the bolt and which for the rope?
Yes, you don't want the stiff dogbone acting as a lever against the biner on the bolt end. The rope moves, the bolt doesn't.
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100
reboot wrote: Yes, you don't want the stiff dogbone acting as a lever against the biner on the bolt end. The rope moves, the bolt doesn't.
The way I'm picturing it, if the rope-end biner is floppy, how does the rope's movement transfer to the bolt-end biner? Not saying it wouldn't--I just can't picture how it might happen.

(David, you're right about ease of clipping. I'm just wondering about safety. For onsight climbing without prehung draws, the draw-to-bolt clip tends to be way harder for me than the rope-to-draw clip.)
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Phil Esra wrote: The way I'm picturing it, if the rope-end biner is floppy, how does the rope's movement transfer to the bolt-end biner?
The rope can pull the draw sideways. It wouldn't matter if the rope end biner is floppy or not, if you pull the end of the draw, you'll rotate the bolt end biner if it's stiff. If the bolt end biner is floppy, the dogbone is more likely to rotate against the biner (i.e. move along the spine of the biner) than rotating the biner against the bolt into a compromised position (say having the nose catch the hanger).
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

I honestly wouldn't worry much about the safety of the draw if it's hung upside-down, but I'll echo what others have already said: try to climb a little higher so you can reach. If the bolt is out of reach when you're holding the biner, trying to clip by holding the dogbone is a sure way to fuck up the clip and waste a lot of energy. And I am speaking from experience here...I've tried to clip earlier than I should have many times and it always makes things worse in the end. Even if the higher position may be on worse holds, having the bolt "right there" will let you clip quickly and keep moving.

Charlie S · · NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 2,391

From Petzl's website:

How not to clip a quickdraw.

Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100
reboot wrote: The rope can pull the draw sideways. It wouldn't matter if the rope end biner is floppy or not, if you pull the end of the draw, you'll rotate the bolt end biner if it's stiff. If the bolt end biner is floppy, the dogbone is more likely to rotate against the biner (i.e. move along the spine of the biner) than rotating the biner against the bolt into a compromised position (say having the nose catch the hanger).
Oh! Right. Huh, not sure why I struggle to visualize it. Thanks.

....
Yes, there's a lot to be said for clipping from as high a stance as possible. I could certainly do better on that front...
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100
Ryan Williams wrote:Cheater draws are for new projects… NOT on sighting.
Mmm, it's all a spectrum of style, I guess. I will award myself extra style points if I hang my own draws on an onsight or redpoint, but using a couple of stiff draws doesn't warrant a tiny sliver of an asterisk in my book. I will openly declare all the tactics I've used when the magazines call to interview me about my latest send : )
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

Clip at your waist. You'll have less times when you make a very strenuous only to find an awesome stance 1 move later

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
JeffL wrote:Clip at your waist. You'll have less times when you make a very strenuous only to find an awesome stance 1 move later
x2 Just climb higher when possible. Instead of approaching the bolt with the idea that you need to stop about 3' below it to clip, approach it with the idea that once you are in range of the bolt, you will stop whenever it feels natural. Taking that approach, as opposed to forcing yourself to stop at a specific point, can make clipping easier.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
20 kN wrote: x2 Just climb higher when possible. Instead of approaching the bolt with the idea that you need to stop about 3' below it to clip, approach it with the idea that once you are in range of the bolt, you will stop whenever it feels natural. Taking that approach, as opposed to forcing yourself to stop at a specific point, can make clipping easier.
... climbing higher... if possible is best. But its depends on the type of stone your on.

Granite, the slick stuff, usualy has a natural stance to clip from.

all of my height challenged friends, pack a "12 inch stiffie" ....
this is simply a 12 inch dogbone all taped up with tape, and both ends are fixxed, this device lets you reach up and get the clip. Then they change it out as soon as they can reach it.

no need to blow a ton of $$$$$$$ on that Kong deal, IMHO.
Phil Esra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 100
Guy Keesee wrote: ... no need to blow a ton of $$$$$$$ on that Kong deal, IMHO.
I can't tell how it works, but I assume that with that Kong thing you can just stay on the ground and fire it at all the bolts, or something.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Phil Esra wrote: I can't tell how it works, but I assume that with that Kong thing you can just stay on the ground and fire it at all the bolts, or something.
OK ... now I want one.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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