FIRST TIME MOUNTAINEERING, GEAR SUGGESTIONS

Hello and good day everyone. Though I am not a major contributor to the Mountain Project forums, I am hoping to get a little assistance and advice for purchasing equipment and clothing for what will be my first Mountaineering Class and hopefully many more trips to come.

Initially I had been contacting Acadia Mountain Guides regarding a trip and unfortunately, there was a delay in confirming someone for our trip and the dates were booked up so this trip has been postponed. I am currently looking into alternative Introduction to Mountaineering classes at other locations. The east coast would be preferred to save money on plane tickets, but at this point I just want to be in the mountains;

New Hampshire's Synnott Mountain Guides has a class that's $450 for 3 days, but some gear isn't included and must be rented.http://www.newhampshireclimbing.com/climbing-course.asp?ID=75&cat=6

Alaska Mountain Guides has a few trips between $500-$1050 with almost everything included. I have a friend in Alaska I could stay with which would make this trip more advantageous
alaskamountainguides.com/?p…

I've been to Mt Shasta and considered taking a class there, and that's a legit 14'er. Although this seems ideal, I get this commercialized, pre packaged feeling regarding that trip but maybe it just the flashy website. shasta.theflybook.com/book/…

Any other suggestions would be welcomed. This news regarding the lack of availability for Katahdin was rather devastating. Between the ideal inclusions, great price, its on my side of the country, the comforts of the bunkhouse, cross country skiing and the myriad of other things I would learned. ::sigh::

Basically, I enjoy climbing and I enjoy the winter. Combine the two, and here I am trying to figure out the best way to approach this new interest. I consulted Acadia Mountain Guides and spoke to Dick Chasse', a prominent guide in the area. He and I ran through several scenarios of different styles of trips and combinations of techniques we could work on. ( expedition prep, hard single day pushes, technical ice, understanding traversing through environmentally hazardous areas and other more technical aspects of mountaineering)

I decided on everything mentioned with the exception of technical ice. That's for the next class provided this all goes well. Here is a breakdown of a trip on the website.

acadiamountainguides.com/in…

Now a brief background of myself and what I currently own;
Winter backpacking for about 5 years now and accumulated everything needed for a mild 4 season kit;

REI Dome 2+,
Kelty Cosmic 20 bag,
Big Agnes insulated sleep pad
Jetboil, water filter, ect.
North Face Base Camp Duffel (large) for the traveling.
Mountain Hardware Trad bag 35liter, LL Bean 50liter bag

Climbing outdoors for about 4 years, currently a youth coach at Vertical Rock gym in Virginia. Often I go out solo and hike/climb scrambles. Sometimes rappeling and rigging anchors for practice at local crags.

Here's what I feel I may need, I consulted the guide and some other more experienced climbers at our gym for information too. Feel free to make suggestions, link posts and give your $0.02. Thanks everyone. If you've got something for sale that's included on my list, please leave a link or send me a message.

Clothing I currently own;
midweight base layer top and bottoms,
One pair of BD mid-weight gloves,
Two lighter Mountain Hardware down jackets.
I typically wear jeans or kahiki pants so I will need some of those.
Several pair of REI rag-wool socks.
Waterproof Red Wing hiking boots

Clothing/Gear I believe I'll need to purchase?;
0' sleeping bag or warmer
Better insulated sleeping pad than BA Insulated pad
Hard-shell and/or soft shell layers (RAB Vapour-Rise jacket, Arcteryx Alpha, Outdoor Research Salvo)
Thicker down jacket than my two light Mt. Hardware jackets.
A set of Bibs and/or Pants (any suggestions)
REI or comparable brand heavyweight base layers
A few pair of Black Diamond Mid-weights liners
Black Diamond Guide gloves and mittens
Outdoor Research balaclava that wraps my face, I have dreadlocks and a full head one wouldn't work.

And although they are provided, any advice on Boots, Axe's and Crampons will be greatly appreciated for the future purchase of my own technical alpine equipment. Obviously I've chosen some gear that's usually on the top 10 gear lists. I would not object to lesser expensive gear that suits the job if anyone has suggestions. Saving money is always nice. :)

Thanks everyone, hope to hear some great first hand experiences in this location or with gear its suggested I look into.

(this was a long post so my apologies about any spelling errors i may have created)

My advice:

You are on the right track. I would recommend picking out 2 or 3 objectives and then talking to your guide and seeing what gear he would recommend for those objectives. Your gear needs will vary based on a variety of things: activity, location, season, etc. Really helpful if they are objectives your guide is familiar with and/or has done (nothing like first/hand knowledge).

Also if the class let's you rent gear or provides gear I would take advantage of that and try things out. Gear is very personal, particularly clothing and sleeping systems. What works for one person may not work for another. Best to try as many options as you can before settling on one. Also pay attention to what the guide is using and whatever around you is using. Certain items are popular for good reason (and then again there are a few things that are really fashionable but completely useless)

Also try to think of your gear in terms of systems and how it all interacts. For example, sleeping system, cooking system, etc... It's all got to work together.

Stagg54 wrote:My advice: You are on the right track. I would recommend picking out 2 or 3 objectives and then talking to your guide and seeing what gear he would recommend for those objectives. Your gear needs will vary based on a variety of things: activity, location, season, etc. Really helpful if they are objectives your guide is familiar with and/or has done (nothing like first/hand knowledge). Also if the class let's you rent gear or provides gear I would take advantage of that and try things out. Gear is very personal, particularly clothing and sleeping systems. What works for one person may not work for another. Best to try as many options as you can before settling on one. Also pay attention to what the guide is using and whatever around you is using. Certain items are popular for good reason (and then again there are a few things that are really fashionable but completely useless) Also try to think of your gear in terms of systems and how it all interacts. For example, sleeping system, cooking system, etc... It's all got to work together.

Yes though I do try and keep my pack organized by system, I dont usually have to consider much when packing given the low altitude and short hikes of only a few miles. Having to haul more, in a colder environment, for longer periods of time will require a more stringent decision of what I need and want on the mountain.

For instance while considering my cooking system, the Jetboil is a great item but does it really stand up to the high winds and cold temperatures? Other stoves with wind screens tend to be heavier but perhaps the extra material provides a more stable heat source for cooking.

I am sure this is one of many topics i will bring up now that I'm stirring up the idea pot. Thanks for the input.

Danyl Britts wrote: For instance while considering my cooking system, the Jetboil is a great item but does it really stand up to the high winds and cold temperatures? Other stoves with wind screens tend to be heavier but perhaps the extra material provides a more stable heat source for cooking. I am sure this is one of many topics i will bring up now that I'm stirring up the idea pot. Thanks for the input.

that's exactly the correct way to be thinking.

In cold weather jetboil consumes tons of fuel in order to do basic cooking or melt snow. I would use a whisperlite or similar white gas stove for winter mountaineering. You will be able to carry less fuel.

Everyone will have their own opinions. If I were going into a cold mountaineering scenario, here's what I would be taking/packing. This is what I own, and I don't claim to be an expert.

Helmet
Mountain hardwear power stretch balaclava
Julbo glacier glasses
Merino upper baselayer
Patagonia r2 fleece
First ascent light down vest, packs into own pocket
Rab neo stretch hardshell - would probably take this instead of soft shell
Outdoor research maestro puffy
Bd guide gloves

Knee high darn tough mountaineering socks-no liners
Northface 3/4 length baselayer bottoms
Outdoor research salvo pants
Probably have some marmot waterproof pants in the pack, just in case.--depending on the approach and scenario.

Have fun,
Mike

20F bag without a bivy sack and vapor barrier isn't going to go far in Maine.

With a vapor barrier and a bivy sack, it's probably good to 5F. But in the Northeast, you will encounter temps well below zero at times. My system is a vapor barrier, 0F down bag and a very light bivy sack. This can be modulated as necessary, but will keep you warm inside a tent to -25F and alive and well much colder. It's also functional outside the tent.

I disagree on the JetBoil. While I do tend to carry white gas for longer trips, for a few nights, butane is superior.

It's used at the high camps on Everest, and by some well known guide services on the Presidential Range in New Hampshire. Provided you know how to get the most out of the stove it is much simpler and more efficient than white gas stove. The best way to use such a stove is inside the tent as a hanging stove. A little pre warming of the canister inside your puffy or sleeping bag will give it enough warmth to fire up nice and clean. Once you get the stove going a little bit of warm water in a bowl touched to the bottom of the canister will keep it plenty warm. Or you can build a koozie for the canister and put a hand warmer into it.

obviously there is some risk using a stove hanging inside the tents, however, there are many advantages to this system including being able to dry out some of your clothing/gear inside the tent and being able to take less clothing/sleeping gesr for sitting around camp. You also tend to eat and drink more while. Comfortably inside your warm tent and sleeping bag.

As others said, you're pretty much on the right track. Your guide should be able to give you more help with everything, but I have a few specific suggestions.

A 0 deg bag will work for the NE if you sleep warm. Otherwise, expect to wear some puffies to bed on the colder nights.

Rather than getting a more expensive sleeping pad, a lot of people combine a pad like the BA insulated with a cheap/light foam pad. That way you've still got something if the inflatable pad punctures.

Don't underestimate the wind, esp. in the Presidentials, but also on Katahdin. Any exposed skin will be extremely cold and vulnerable to frostbite. Regarding the balaclava, I'd get a thin one you'll wear 90% of the time, but I think a thick or windproof covering is necessary for ridgelines and summits.

For mountaineering in the NE and greater ranges, double boots are relatively cheap, warm, and will still work when you want to climb ice.

For mountaineering, cheap BD or CAMP axes and crampons work fine. However, I find that microspikes do a better job than crampons 90% of the time in New England. Mountain-tops frequently have rocks covered with rime-ice and crampons and bare boots both suck for traction.

Finally, most companies that guide Denali have gear lists published online. The kit they use is remarkably similar for mountaineering in New England. I suggest looking through one of their list to see if there's any part of the system you've overlooked.

Stagg54 wrote: that's exactly the correct way to be thinking.

Thanks! Just trying to cover all my bases.

Mike Hancock wrote:In cold weather jetboil consumes tons of fuel in order to do basic cooking or melt snow. I would use a whisperlite or similar white gas stove for winter mountaineering. You will be able to carry less fuel.

Great info. I will be sure to look into those. Any other stove alternatives that include a build in wind screen? MSR makes those Reactor stoves. I like that idea of a self contained system like that. Or is liquid fuel just the preferred fuel choice?

2 things in the montains of NE in winter.cold and wet..you can easy get above freezing temps, followed by WAY cold//-30 stuff

No one system will cover all this all the time

I really think things like moving fast and learning when to bail are essential

Danyl Britts wrote: Thanks! Just trying to cover all my bases. Great info. I will be sure to look into those. Any other stove alternatives that include a build in wind screen? MSR makes those Reactor stoves. I like that idea of a self contained system like that. Or is liquid fuel just the preferred fuel choice?

I'll say it again. BAD BAD recommendation for short trips. I believe both these sites writers have a fair amount of experience with butane stoves in harsh environments, specifically Northeast winters. But as Mark Chauvin points out, these systems are also used on Everest.

You can make a hanging white gas stove, but it's far less safe and weights more than a butane. it's also messy. I've done both the vestibule white gas and the hanging butane and while both have pros and cons, the winner has always been the hanging butane stove.

See here:

chauvinguides.com/PresiTrav…

and here:

mountainvisions.blogspot.co…

Mike Belu wrote:Everyone will have their own opinions. If I were going into a cold mountaineering scenario, here's what I would be taking/packing. This is what I own, and I don't claim to be an expert. Helmet Mountain hardwear power stretch balaclava Julbo glacier glasses Merino upper baselayer Patagonia r2 fleece First ascent light down vest, packs into own pocket Rab neo stretch hardshell - would probably take this instead of soft shell Outdoor research maestro puffy Bd guide gloves Knee high darn tough mountaineering socks-no liners Northface 3/4 length baselayer bottoms Outdoor research salvo pants Probably have some marmot waterproof pants in the pack, just in case.--depending on the approach and scenario. Have fun, Mike

Awesome thanks for sharing the contents of your kit with me. Our guide gave some advice to wear a soft shell for majority of the trip and having a hard shell for more wet, colder or harsher conditions;

Hard-shell's to consider;
Rab Lotok,
Arcteryx Alpha, or
Mountain Hardware Quasar.
Any other suggestions on hard-shells are appreciated

Soft-shell's to consider; (*Scholler fabric seems like the best choice)
Black Diamond Dawn Patrol*
Marmot Zion
Rab Vapour Rise
Rab Stretch Neo Jacket
Mammut Gipfelgrat jacket*

Those both along with a nice puffy to keep everything toasty once the temp drops or wind picks up.

john strand wrote:2 things in the montains of NE in winter.cold and wet..you can easy get above freezing temps, followed by WAY cold//-30 stuff No one system will cover all this all the time I really think things like moving fast and learning when to bail are essential

Yes I completely agree, while no system is perfect, its about management and indeed knowing when to call it quits.

mtnmandan wrote:As others said, you're pretty much on the right track. Your guide should be able to give you more help with everything, but I have a few specific suggestions. A 0 deg bag will work for the NE if you sleep warm. Otherwise, expect to wear some puffies to bed on the colder nights. Rather than getting a more expensive sleeping pad, a lot of people combine a pad like the BA insulated with a cheap/light foam pad. That way you've still got something if the inflatable pad punctures. Don't underestimate the wind, esp. in the Presidentials, but also on Katahdin. Any exposed skin will be extremely cold and vulnerable to frostbite. Regarding the balaclava, I'd get a thin one you'll wear 90% of the time, but I think a thick or windproof covering is necessary for ridgelines and summits. For mountaineering in the NE and greater ranges, double boots are relatively cheap, warm, and will still work when you want to climb ice. For mountaineering, cheap BD or CAMP axes and crampons work fine. However, I find that microspikes do a better job than crampons 90% of the time in New England. Mountain-tops frequently have rocks covered with rime-ice and crampons and bare boots both suck for traction. Finally, most companies that guide Denali have gear lists published online. The kit they use is remarkably similar for mountaineering in New England. I suggest looking through one of their list to see if there's any part of the system you've overlooked.

The sleeping bag is a must purchase and Ive become accustomed to wearing puffies to sleep here in the winter while backpacking. Great info regarding the double pad tip. Ive always been apprehensive to bring the foam pad because of packing size for two pads, but in lieu of having a sled to carry things on a pad isnt much weight to add and hella comfort. The face protection is something I will need to work on. With dreadlocks down to my butt i could use some better head protection that will fit my massive hair.

The technical gear I would rent my first time and then see what I prefer and what works nice as I play with different brands and styles. I thought when I got a backpacking kit, climbing kit and trad rack, I would be done dropping money on gear for a bit. Hah, I guessed wrong.

J. Serpico wrote:20F bag without a bivy sack and vapor barrier isn't going to go far in Maine. With a vapor barrier and a bivy sack, it's probably good to 5F. But in the Northeast, you will encounter temps well below zero at times. My system is a vapor barrier, 0F down bag and a very light bivy sack. This can be modulated as necessary, but will keep you warm inside a tent to -25F and alive and well much colder. It's also functional outside the tent. I disagree on the JetBoil. While I do tend to carry white gas for longer trips, for a few nights, butane is superior. It's used at the high camps on Everest, and by some well known guide services on the Presidential Range in New Hampshire. Provided you know how to get the most out of the stove it is much simpler and more efficient than white gas stove. The best way to use such a stove is inside the tent as a hanging stove. A little pre warming of the canister inside your puffy or sleeping bag will give it enough warmth to fire up nice and clean. Once you get the stove going a little bit of warm water in a bowl touched to the bottom of the canister will keep it plenty warm. Or you can build a koozie for the canister and put a hand warmer into it. obviously there is some risk using a stove hanging inside the tents, however, there are many advantages to this system including being able to dry out some of your clothing/gear inside the tent and being able to take less clothing/sleeping gesr for sitting around camp. You also tend to eat and drink more while. Comfortably inside your warm tent and sleeping bag.

Interesting food for thought. Yes the hanging kit in a tent is sort of dissuading but i can see all the reasons you would choose to do that inside. Thank you for the information and tip tricks.

J. Serpico wrote: I'll say it again. BAD BAD recommendation for short trips. I believe both these sites writers have a fair amount of experience with butane stoves in harsh environments, specifically Northeast winters. But as Mark Chauvin points out, these systems are also used on Everest. You can make a hanging white gas stove, but it's far less safe and weights more than a butane. it's also messy. I've done both the vestibule white gas and the hanging butane and while both have pros and cons, the winner has always been the hanging butane stove. See here: chauvinguides.com/PresiTrav… and here: mountainvisions.blogspot.co…

Thanks for the feedback, I will be sure to look through these links.

Danyl Britts wrote: . With dreadlocks down to my butt i could use some better head protection that will fit my massive hair.

Probably not your first choice but a pair of scissors will take care of those dreds...

Although in all seriousness I can't imagine doing serious mountaineering with those. I imagine they'd just get wet and freeze, in which case they would probably break off... on Mt. Washington it is is quite common to end up with huge icicles hanging off you beard or eyelashes...

I'm very interested to learn how you fair with that. Also don't they interfere with a helmet?

+1 to anything Marc Chauvin might have to say. He's not messing about.

The rest is my opinion. I spent 19 years in Maine, the mid 90's ice climbing in NH and Maine, and about 6 years backcountry skiing. I did one North to South ski traverse of Baxter State Park.

Katahdin is a more serious undertaking than Mt. Washington. Lower wind speeds, warmer but waaaaay more remote. Screw up on Katahdin, and you will not be rescued. North & South Basin are two of the few places in Maine with avalanche hazard.

Travel:
Ski- in, to the point where the XC skis won't work, then snowshoe/ hike from that point. I lived in central Maine, south of Baxter, with maybe not as much snow. The hike in to Katahdin is littered with blocks that I doubt snow will cover enough for you to ski over, but I don't actually know. Thus, I suggest skiing in to the point where you can't, to save time. Thus, a lighter weight ski rig may do just fine. Full metal edges are the way to go.
Sled to haul all the crap you're going to need for a 5 days (5? brutal) trip. See the Allen & Mike's books on methods for rigging. The sled may only work on the road, the path through the woods may be too brutal with the sled.
Snowshoes - if the guide suggests snow shoes, fine, but, if your weight including gear comes out on the line, go with the larger one. Sinking sucks. You MUST get full swing bindings, or you will be hating your time on snowshoes.
Crampons - I never climbed Katahdin in winter, but some of the routes are technical. Bring the appropriate crampons. The bit about mini spikes was interesting; the top of Katahdin is littered with knee breaker blocks, and for all I know, it's all glare & rime ice in the winter and crampons will be moot once you pull over the top.

Legs: I used non padded bike tights with bibs for backcountry skiing. With full side zips on the bibs and my pile pants, it was pretty easy to add/ subtract layers. Bibs eliminate one seam under your pack/ harness. It also gives you a pocket for the avy beacon/compass/etc. Full zips also allow venting above the gaiters) Get some pile/ down pants to cover all that once you cool off, and you're good.

Upper body - mid weight quarter zip top, wind block fleece/ softshell, then a hardshell. Down belay jacket goes on over everything after you cool off.

Neck - I prefer two neck gaiters to a balaclava, but I cover my mouth. When ice forms in the fleece in front of my mouth, I rotate that to the back (after smacking some of the ice out of it). Maybe for Katahdin, I'd bring a balaclava... I hate them, but I like my ears. A lot.

Gloves: you'll want thin polypro liners & something on the order of Swix full finger, knit wrist XC ski gloves that breathe like crazy & what ever people ice climb with these days & a polypro mitten liner/ gore mitten shell. Until I got the Swix XC gloves, I did a lot of skiing in gore mitten shells: windproof, good venting sans liner, barrier between me and the snow when I fell over. I hate poly liner gloves and rarely use them, unless the temps would instantly freeze me to metal, around 10F.

Boots: I did a lot of skiing in plastic boots, and my Katahdin trip in them. My suggestion? Vapor barriers, Smart Wool sox, and you're good. Because you are going to climb in them, I suggest neoprene VBL sox; they provide enough friction for your foot not to slide around inside the wool sox, which good ol' bread bags will not. Supergaiters glue tacked to the rand of your boots will buy you warmer feet, and still allow you to climb. Plus keeping your laces from freezing. Insulated s.g.'s will give you really warm feet but may cut down your climbing ability.

Head: poly lined wool hat/ maybe a Gore windstopper hat. Glacier glasses for the sunny days, yellow/rose tint safety glasses for the gray days while skiing. You might want goggles for the top of Katahdin.

Stoves... I used an MSR X-GK in winter, and started it with gooey fire paste stuff. During our ski traverse, we spent some time in cabins cooking on a woodstove, so we only used about half a can of fuel each. My buddy had black anodized cookware, which worked way faster than my shiny stainless.
Stove inside of a tent? Yes, with a canister, never with white gas. Chop stix weigh less than a fork, and your fingers won't freeze to them.

Sleeping: I line my pack with 3' of blue ensolite which goes under my legs, overlapping with the Thermarest. I've never used a VBL in my bag, since I've never been in conditions that cold. I use a pile blanket as a liner, and a bivy sack, plus the down jacket over the top of me if needed, and an elephant's foot. Maximum versatility with a 40F bag, which I've cheerily used down to 5F. I was not cold with that set up.

You might want to rent the winter down bag, since that's a big purchase for something you'll never be able to use in VA.

If you want some input from some Mainers who do a lot of winter trips, talk to Kelly & Todd at Nomads in Portland.

Stagg54 wrote: Probably not your first choice but a pair of scissors will take care of those dreds... Although in all seriousness I can't imagine doing serious mountaineering with those. I imagine they'd just get wet and freeze, in which case they would probably break off... on Mt. Washington it is is quite common to end up with huge icicles hanging off you beard or eyelashes... I'm very interested to learn how you fair with that. Also don't they interfere with a helmet?

WOW what information via those links man. Thanks! I would consider just buying the hanging kit for this trip and make a better investment in a more light weight and fuel efficient stove once I'm back. Trying to be sort of budget conscious with all the clothing and sleeping bag I need to purchase.

Stagg54 wrote: Probably not your first choice but a pair of scissors will take care of those dreds... Although in all seriousness I can't imagine doing serious mountaineering with those. I imagine they'd just get wet and freeze, in which case they would probably break off... on Mt. Washington it is is quite common to end up with huge icicles hanging off you beard or eyelashes... I'm very interested to learn how you fair with that. Also don't they interfere with a helmet?

Yea I have heard quite a bit of guff regarding my dreads and the idea of mountaineering with them. Grivel makes a helmet thats an XL size. We dont have too many places to try on a variety of helmets here. REI has a handful of styles but not many in my size.

grivel.com/products/ice/hel…

It would make sense, the dangers of having long, thick hair in wet/freezing conditions for prolonged periods of time. And the potential dangers of having one caught in a belay, or on rappel, both of which I have already experienced. That said, I have taken precautionary measures to prevent it from happening again. I've had them for just under a decade and now that they're THIS long, the consideration is weighing heavily in the trim or cut them off. I have accepted pulling them back and having them down my back under my jacket but I suppose it will take some experience with them to see just how much of a nuisance, or tolerable, they'll be.

Dan,

You might consider the Potomac Mountaineering Club They're in your area and look like they could be a good resource for you.

There's also Coldthistle for all things alpine (clothing and gear)

James Sweeney wrote: Dan, You might consider the Potomac Mountaineering Club They're in your area and look like they could be a good resource for you. There's also Coldthistle for all things alpine (clothing and gear)

Second the Potomac Mt. Club. They are good guys.

James Sweeney wrote: Dan, You might consider the Potomac Mountaineering Club They're in your area and look like they could be a good resource for you. There's also Coldthistle for all things alpine (clothing and gear)

Stagg54 wrote: Second the Potomac Mt. Club. They are good guys.

Awesome thanks for the information. Coldthistle does have a boatload of information I will be sure to use.

UPDATE:

So its been a while since I posted any information. I've been quite busy with work and the start of the holidays just passing.

Since my last update I've stocked up on some new gear. Trying to take advantage of the Black Friday / Cyber Monday deals.

4 pair REI Expedition Weight socks
2 Pair Heavyweight base layer pants
3 Heavyweight base layer Tops
Craigslist scooped some Black Diamond Dawn Patrol Bibs (2013) for $162!
jp.blackdiamondequipment.co…

I'm still purchasing the remaining gear that's both a solid piece and budget conscious;
750/850fill down puffy - Mammut Broad Peak Down (we sell them at our gym)
backcountry.com/mammut-broa…
Gloves - I was considering OR Arete' or BD Rebel gloves, both around $90/100
A few pair BD heavyweight glove liners or equivalent

Any considerations on the gear I considered?
Any suggestions regarding my pants system. Base layer + BD Bibs = enough?