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By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Jun 30, 2014

OP's tag line under his profile:

"Guideline #1: don't be a jerk. Unfortunately some people only know how to be jerks. Don't talk to me unless its neutral or encouraging. People need to learn how to spend less time pushing others down and spend more time picking them up."

There was certainly nothing neutral or encouraging about your post... Maybe do your homework next time before putting your foot in your mouth.


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Jun 30, 2014

This thread was a beautiful n00b detector.


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By teece303
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Jun 30, 2014
Aiding.

I'm a bolting newb, admittedly, but my first thought upon seeing the photo was "that's a wave bolt glue-in thingy, isn't it? Maybe a little messy, but..."

And FWIW, I think CCC stone is gneiss/schist, not basalt (that's Table). But I am not a geologist.


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By Mike McHugh
Jun 30, 2014

John Wilder wrote:
Mike- Greg placed one of Jim's glue-ins, which are the strongest on the market- they pull to near 50kn, far stronger than the powers do. I wish they were more available here in the States. But you are right, and I dont think Greg meant to imply the powers bolts aren't good enough for the job. Anything 1/2" Stainless is going to be far better than the current crop of original hardware on most routes!


I posted the spec for the 2.5" powers, because that's what was placed on Anarchy last year. I think the spec for the 5" powers (which I placed plenty of) is pretty comparable to Jim's hardware. I also think it's important to look at the specs for radial and axial - they're not interchangeable. There's only one data point that I saw for Jim's bolt for radial (shear) strength, which apparently involved an anchor failure. And sorry I thought it was basalt, teece. I think the limitation of the powers is more in the 30-35kN hangers. And all of this should be taken with a grain of salt - it seems like many popular carabiners have major axis breaking strengths of 25-30kN.

I wish I had the intellect and writing skills to advocate for mechanical anchors - it seems like the pendulum of popular opinion has swung to glue-ins, but after reading and thinking about the available data for both kinds of anchors, I'm not sure there's a hands down winner. I'm concerned about the legacy we're leaving for the next generation of hardware replacers, but again, popular opinion has swung to glue-ins. So be it. I will go gentle into that good night of the five-piece dinosaurs.


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By nicelegs
From Denver
Jun 30, 2014

Mike McHugh wrote:
I posted the spec for the 2.5" powers, because that's what was placed on Anarchy last year. I think the spec for the 5" powers (which I placed plenty of) is pretty comparable to Jim's hardware. I also think it's important to look at the specs for radial and axial - they're not interchangeable. There's only one data point that I saw for Jim's bolt for radial (shear) strength, which apparently involved an anchor failure. And sorry I thought it was basalt, teece. I think the limitation of the powers is more in the 30-35kN hangers. And all of this should be taken with a grain of salt - it seems like many popular carabiners have major axis breaking strengths of 25-30kN. I wish I had the intellect and writing skills to advocate for mechanical anchors - it seems like the pendulum of popular opinion has swung to glue-ins, but after reading and thinking about the available data for both kinds of anchors, I'm not sure there's a hands down winner. I'm concerned about the legacy we're leaving for the next generation of hardware replacers, but again, popular opinion has swung to glue-ins. So be it. I will go gentle into that good night of the five-piece dinosaurs.



Mike, you are on to something there. It would probably end up being a problem if all bolts got replaced with glue ins. The Titt bolts are supposed to be removable with a pry bar, a sledge hammer, and a propane torch. If they ever got worn enough to warrant replacing, I doubt the eye would take the abuse needed to get it out.

Stainless steel sleeve bolts should be easier to remove 30 years from now. Or 50, or even 100. The trouble is that most popular areas will see major bolt replacement efforts every 15 years. Some of it will be necessary but all the bolts will be done. In a century, it will look like swiss cheese.

I wonder what climbing will look like in a century though? Will our bolts be relevant? Will outdoors be relevant. It's hard to say.

Glue ins should be used in soft or porous rock. Glue ins can be made of titanium or 1.4462 stainless and won't rust, I'm not aware of any mechanical bolts with these metals. To put glue ins thousands of miles inland on solid rock doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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By Gregger Man
Jul 1, 2014
gg

I like 1/2" SS 5-piece bolts. I'm 99% confident that I can get the sleeve(s) and cone back out of a hole (unless it gets over-tightened and breaks at the head.)
I think glue-ins are useful in special cases, too.
I strongly advocate reusing bolt holes, even though it sometimes means spending anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes using the whole toolkit to get the old bolt out. The standard method of chopping and patching takes about 45 seconds -- but then you get a Swiss cheese rock face.
If we want to maintain the same bolt location for routes like Camouflage equipped with Mammut ring bolts, glue-ins are the only option because the hole is already too big for a mechanical bolt. True, they will probably be impossible to remove. If someone were to come along to re-equip the route 100 years from now, they'd chop and patch. Hopefully some new technology would be developed by then to remove it, but the bolt and glue are certainly durable.


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By mike gibson
From Rapid City, SD
Jul 1, 2014

.

Greg D wrote:
OP. Apology? Waiting .....


I would like to thank the OP for asking this question and I must also admit that I would not have known any better. I tend to think that after 25+ years of climbing that I've seen everything, but I have never seen a glue-in like that before.

Certainly the OP could learn some diplomacy and manners, however, this thread provided a great opportunity for the contributers to post information about the nature of glue-ins that was new to me and I appreciate the learning opportunity.


.


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By Mike McHugh
Jul 1, 2014

Whoa - we're having a civil discussion without some of the usual MP jerks. Quick! While nobody is paying attention, let's chat.

nicelegs wrote:
To put glue ins thousands of miles inland on solid rock doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Anybody else ponder galvanic corrosion at high altitude (RMNP)? Yeah, the concentrations of electrolytes are minimal, but I wonder if the electrical potentials are enough to impact the bolts. It'd be nice to study old hardware on Long's or something. That'd be a spot where I'd lean heavily towards glue-ins (even Ti?), but that's just a gut reaction.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014

nicelegs wrote:
... The trouble is that most popular areas will see major bolt replacement efforts every 15 years. Some of it will be necessary but all the bolts will be done. In a century, it will look like swiss cheese.


Yes...

In the Red, some routes have already been rebolted 3 times in 12 years. They already are swiss cheese and due to spacing out the holes, the bolts aren't where you want them.

(mounting my soap-box) The reason bolts need replacement is that they corrode. Sure, a few may be damaged, but corrosion is the main culprit. Except in desert-like environments, any Series 300 stainless will eventually corrode and need replacement. Duplex stainless, such as 1.4462 or 2205, may greatly increase the lifetime, but until long-term data is back from actual outdoor placements, we're just guessing. Currently, titanium is the only material with a proven track-record.

nicelegs wrote:
Glue ins can be made of titanium or 1.4462 stainless and won't rust, I'm not aware of any mechanical bolts with these metals. To put glue ins thousands of miles inland on solid rock doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


It actually does make sense. Series 300 stainless bolts far from the sea may not rust, per se, but they have broken from SCC. In South Africa, 80km inland. In Cuba, 40km inland. Being near the sea accelerates corrosion, but is not necessary for corrosion to proceed more slowly.

So if we don't want to eventually have swiss cheese everywhere, and the recurring cost of rebolting every 15 or so years, and the wrath of the resource managers, we really should be bolting with Ti glue-ins.

The inconvenience of glue-ins can be mitigated by using removable bolts and the occasional temporary expansion bolt until the permanent glue-ins are placed.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014

Mike McHugh wrote:
Anybody else ponder galvanic corrosion at high altitude (RMNP)? Yeah, the concentrations of electrolytes are minimal, but I wonder if the electrical potentials are enough to impact the bolts. It'd be nice to study old hardware on Long's or something. That'd be a spot where I'd lean heavily towards glue-ins (even Ti?), but that's just a gut reaction.


I haven't thought about it until now ;-)

I think the short answer is: It Depends (tm). There's so many variables, especially regarding the actual bolts used (eg. stainless/galvanized/mis-matched steels, diameter, etc.) that it's hard to predict a service lifetime.

Being cold and granite, Longs probably has one of the longest lifespans around for a well-placed, good quality stainless bolt. (A poorly placed bolt may suffer from freeze-thaw.)

A quick-and-dirty "study" would be to gather feedback from climbers about how the bolts look. Discoloration of any kind is a bad thing.


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By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Jul 1, 2014
Toofast

John Byrnes wrote:
Here's a quote from a bolt manufacturer about the Hilti RE-500. The redactions are mine. "I have tested redacted bolts glued in to milled steel blocks. Redacted. The hole in the steel block is not very porous and is very smooth sided (unlike a hole drilled in rock) and I have never had a failure of the resin (shaft pulling out). In fact I can't even get the broken shaft out with a 10 ton press (100kn). I have to heat the steel block so much that the resin actually sets on fire and the shaft falls out eventually or with the persuasion of a big hammer and 10mm bar. I have to use a steel block as even a huge sandstone block will be split at a fifth of the load these bolts take - I know from experience. When the stone block broke, I found that the RE-500 penetrated at least 3mm in to the Gritstone. Redacted but what I do know is that one of my bolts was glued in as normal with RE-500 on a vertical wall and when the rope was pulled it hit a bolt on the way down before the resin had cured and pulled it out a little. It was not flush with the rock and the resin cured with the bolt at a slight angle. A friend of mine thought he would twist it out with a huge steel bar through the eye and to his amazement the eye did actually turn. He assumed it was turning in the resin as it went more than 180 degrees and then surprised him by the shaft shearing flush with the rock under extreme torque. The shaft did not turn in the RE-500 resin." FWIW, I use Hilti RE-500 exclusively.


That is serious bolt glue. Does it come in any other colors?


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By Gregger Man
Jul 1, 2014
gg

John Byrnes wrote:
.....Discoloration of any kind is a bad thing.


Mixed metals on Werk Supp before replacement.
Mixed metals on Werk Supp before replacement.


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By Gregger Man
Jul 1, 2014
gg

Geir wrote:
That is serious bolt glue. Does it come in any other colors?


It is indeed serious glue.
We were curious to see if either the Fixe or the Bolt Products glue-ins that we installed in the video below could be rotated out of the glue after it cured. I used a 1" x 2' long steel bar to try it. Both bolts were solid enough that they broke off at the surface without budging below the glue line. Strong stuff.


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By Dave Alie
From Golden, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Photo Credit: The talented Pete Garceau

Mike McHugh wrote:
Anybody else ponder galvanic corrosion at high altitude (RMNP)? Yeah, the concentrations of electrolytes are minimal, but I wonder if the electrical potentials are enough to impact the bolts. It'd be nice to study old hardware on Long's or something. That'd be a spot where I'd lean heavily towards glue-ins (even Ti?), but that's just a gut reaction.


This is an interesting idea and, considering the massive financial interest in corrosion, is likely to be very well understood by the scientific and industrial community. This is straying from my knowledge base, so please regard this as speculation, but my sense is that the alpine environment would probably favor longer lifetimes.

Galvanic corrosion is by definition a thermodynamically spontaneous process, driven by the different work functions of two metals, occurring primarily at the interface between them. Based on this mechanism, I imagine this process is not likely to be dramatically affected by atmospheric differences that exist within the range of altitudes we climb at.

On the other hand, atmospheric corrosion (the result of aggregation of electroactive species such as chlorine ions in marine environments, sulfur dioxide and other pollutants near industrial sites, etc. on the surface of the metal) is likely to be relatively low in alpine environments. Not only are places like longs typically far from the ocean and other sources of corrosive materials, but the thinner air means fewer contaminants would reach the metal in a given time period in the first place.


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By Patrick Shyvers
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Me

Something I've been wondering about that plays in to Gregger Man's photo... the bolt is the piece with the highest replacement cost. So are there opportunities for cathodic protection? Simple example, use the hangar as the sacrificial anode. This concentrates any corrosion on the hangar, which is trivially replaced.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014

Geir wrote:
That is serious bolt glue. Does it come in any other colors?


Nope. It comes out bright pink when first mixed which makes it easy to visually verify that the two-parts are well mixed before using it.

Then, over a year or so, the color mellows to a flat reddish-beige, which blends well into the background.


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By John Byrnes
Administrator
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014

Patrick Shyvers wrote:
Something I've been wondering about that plays in to Gregger Man's photo... the bolt is the piece with the highest replacement cost. So are there opportunities for cathodic protection? Simple example, use the hangar as the sacrificial anode. This concentrates any corrosion on the hangar, which is trivially replaced.


Because labor is far more expensive than bolts. And recurring labor just keeps hitting you in the checkbook. Besides that, you now need to keep track of all the bolts in an area. Who does that? There's lots of downsides to planned obsolescence of this type, unless you own the Zinc mine.

In some climates, such as the South-East, galvanized hardware only lasts a few years, which is why they moved to stainless.

It's much cheaper in the long run to do it once with materials that will last centuries instead of decades.


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By Patrick Shyvers
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Me

Well, right, I don't mean use crappy iron bolts and try to make up for it with cathode protection. More along the lines of, use nice stainless steel bolts, and try to extend the life of the bolt even further (as the stainless steel will still corrode).

Maybe a stainless steel bolt, stainless steel hangar, and zinc washer?

But, you are right, labor is pricey. Perhaps having to replace the washers every year is not better than having to replace the bolts every couple years. (I wouldn't know; I'm super interested in helping maintain & develop routes, both money & labor, but I haven't figured out how to get involved yet) More than anything I was thinking about reducing swiss-cheesing of the rock.


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By Mike McHugh
Jul 1, 2014

Patrick Shyvers wrote:
Maybe a stainless steel bolt, stainless steel hangar, and zinc washer?.


Would the zinc washer be between the hanger and the rock, or between the hanger and the bolt head (the usual)?


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By Patrick Shyvers
From Fort Collins, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Me

Mike McHugh wrote:
Would the zinc washer be between the hanger and the rock, or between the hanger and the bolt head (the usual)?


Not sure. You need the zinc to contact the electrolyte (e.g. water, soil, etc). So if the bolt is snowed or flooded, under the bolt head would probably work, but if the rock just gets a wet sheen (the way cave rock does, e.g. stalactites) you might need the zinc as close to the rock as possible, e.g. under the hangar.


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By Rick Blair
From Denver
Jul 1, 2014
This is a novel auto blocking belay device.  I think it works quite well, depending on rope thickness and sheath quality, it belays very smooth.  Great to lower with.  You gotta love over engineering.  $3 at a gear swap!

It seems like lately when Greggor tries to do something beneficial he ends up taking shit for it.


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By teece303
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Aiding.

Heck, if Gregger Man ever wants to share with me some of his bolt removal wisdom, I will gladly buy him a case of beer or something...

The work and knowledge is appreciated.


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By Mike McHugh
Jul 1, 2014

Greg's done soooooo much work in eldo. And manages to accommodate the weirdos (like me!) with grace and kindness. Thanks for being awesome.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jul 1, 2014
El Chorro

I'll admit I have but a few years of bolting experience and I don't really do it anymore. But upon learning about the issues around the world and the amount of time and money that is put into re-bolting, I came to the following conclusion (very quickly I might add):

Titanium glue ins are hands down the most durable and longest lasting option. In many cases certain types of stainless steel glue in bolts are also extremely resilient.

To use anything but the best materials the first time around is just a waste of time and money. By installing anything but high quality glue in bolts is kicking the can down the road, something we chastise our governments for all the time.


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By teece303
From Highlands Ranch, CO
Jul 1, 2014
Aiding.

When it comes to dry climates, a Fixe Triplex (or ClimbTech Legacy bolt) is just as top-of-the-line and forward-thinking as a glue-in.

Both great, long term options in dry climates.


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