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By bmdhacks
Oct 24, 2013

Your lazy weekend sleep-in means you got to the base of the classic newbie trade route with three parties ahead of you. After an hour and a half wait you're starting the climb with just enough time to walk off without your headlamp. But at the base of pitch two you find a new party of three asking you to build your anchor early because there's no room on their ledge. See, they opted for an less-common start and forked into this route right ahead of you.

How would you react?


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By SavageMarmot
From Nederland, CO
Oct 24, 2013

Lazy gets what lazy deserves!

Take a nap!


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By bearbreeder
Oct 24, 2013

you got there after them

your own fault

;)


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By Shawn Heath
Administrator
From Forchheim, Germany
Oct 24, 2013
I couldn't resist uploading this cool silhouette my friend Aran took of me on Panische Zeiten.

I would've chosen a less crowded route to begin with. Often times the "classics" greatly overshadow the classic routes right next to them...


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By Nielsonru
Oct 24, 2013

I don't know the specifics of the route your speaking of, but I can think of a route I have done where it was known to be the classic, and it was blatantly obvious that you would be a major tool to start up a different climb, only to hop over onto the classic in front of someone else. For those obvious reasons, it didn't really happen.

Maybe in your situation it wasn't quite obvious. But in any case, just give people the benefit of the doubt, you will learn patience and both of you will learn to have better foresight next time. Just get up early next time.


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By mark felber
From Wheat Ridge, CO
Oct 24, 2013

1. Get up earlier next time.

2. Have an alternative route picked out before you get to the climb. The time you spent waiting in line to climb the classic could have been spent relaxing after climbing, or coping with any unforeseen issues while climbing.

3. You koew the route would be crowded, you knew you were starting late, where were your headlamps?

4. Unless they are really working efficiently, climbing a crowded route as a party of 3 (or more) is not very considerate, especially when they play games like using variation starts to bypass other parties.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Oct 24, 2013
modern man

you got blocked fair and square. never wait for climbs and this never happens.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Oct 24, 2013
Stabby

Throw an epic Wobbler


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By The Phoenix
Oct 24, 2013
The Phoenix

Aside from their actions, it sounds like you climbed too slowly... You were waiting for a group ahead of you, so in theory there was a person belaying from start of pitch two and there was enough time in between when the belayer left the start of pitch two and when you got there to allow another group to setup entirely on the ledge. If not, the variation group would have had to share the ledge with the group ahead of you and I would have pointed that out and shared the ledge. They had no problem sharing before, so there's no problem now right?

In general though if they raced ahead on a variation knowing they were going to butt you out I'd have climbed right up next to them, set my anchor all up in their shit, I'd be rude, and treat them like the NY'ers they are. I'd even lead up and over all their shit on pitch two.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Oct 24, 2013
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

If you don't want to climb a route enough to get an early start then start watching climbing videos. Heck, you could have done whatever the star of the video did if they hadn't gotten in your way!


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By Buff Johnson
Oct 24, 2013
smiley face

boys are stupid, throw rocks at them


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By Mark Vogel
From Lander, WY
Oct 24, 2013

Too funny!


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By Mark Pilate
Oct 24, 2013

Phoenix - your logic does not necessarily hold. While the ledge may fit 2 or maybe 3 ( a member of each team, such as belayer and arriving leader) it may not hold 4. Depends on the arrival/ departure sequence of the team members.

Additionally, trying to out dickhead another team rarely results in a safer and more enjoyable experience


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By doligo
Oct 24, 2013
Jose Cuervo Fruitcups dirtbag style

I would have politely asked to rap off of their anchor back to the ground. Get up early next time and come ready to do the two-star Plan B route in case you're late again.


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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Oct 24, 2013
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)

lol - haven't been on mp in a while but I see some things never change: "I don't waste my time with easy trade routes but you do so I'm going to try and make you feel stupid for it". Clearly, we're still not enforcing the whole jerk rule thing.


I don't see this as a laziness issue; it's an etiquette issue. If he got there first or even second, this other group could still have taken the less-common start and beat him to the first anchor (depending on how much quicker it is ofc).

My question is 'how obvious is it that there are people roping up and/or waiting at the base of the route from the start of the alternate start'? In other words, how certain are you that this group knew they would essentially be jumping ahead of you or others by taking the alternate start?

If the group pulled this stunt knowing that they would be jumping ahead of you then this is clearly a dick move and then you would adjust your response appropriately. Personally, I can't see myself purposefully jumping peeps already in line just bc I got there late. That's just low. It's an alternate start either bc it sucks, it's PG/R/X or it's harder than the rest or the route. I can't see any of those reasons being worthwhile options for someone trying to talk their way out of screwing you over.

To address your main question, I honestly would have to be in the situation to know the specifics of the above question, how they 'asked' me to build an alternate anchor/belay, etc. Basically, I think I'd have to be there.


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By bearbreeder
Oct 24, 2013

in squamish theres tons of moderate climbs with "alternate" pitches

if you threw a hissy fit everytime someone else got to the anchors before you, because they didnt take the "proper" guidebook variation ... and thought you had the "right of way" ...

well then youd get ignored by most climbers out here

the general rule here is first come, first serve to the anchors ... and it works pretty well

if you are on a popular moderate multi ... you should be prepared for gongshows, waiting and all the other fun stuff ...

and if yr timing it so you just barely make it if everything goes right ... you should be prepared to climb and descent in the dark

as to the anchor ... ill build it where its most safe for me and my partner ... and for both parties if possible

;)


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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Oct 24, 2013

Not enough information ... for instance. How many people were on the belay already? If one or two then it is a horse race to see who will have the last person of their party at the belay first. Because that is going to dictate who starts the next pitch first.

-----

If I am the party of two and there is only one or two from other other party at the belay I am headed to the belay as well. When my second arrives with three at the belay I will anchor them into the belay as close as possible. I will then lead off and when in a safe spot stop and have my second move up to the belay.

The other option that if possible I will hand off the rack and have my second lead off. Thus never occupying the belay.

Both are something that is common regardless of the belay size.

The third person from the other party does the same as your second when they arrive - anchor in a close as possible to the belay then move once they leave the belay.

--------

If you are the party of two and your second is the last to arrive you might as well bail because they party of three is going to be slow.

Similarly if the belay already has all three people at the belay you might as well bail because they party of three is going to be slow.


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By D.Buffum
Oct 24, 2013
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

OK, as someone with only slight experience with multi-pitch, I'd like to broaden the question.

I get that the anchor is first come, first serve. Fine, as far as that goes.

But what are the general guidelines for when you should share? Needn't share? When one team is ascending, and another rapping? If I'm leading up a pitch, and I'm surprised to find someone else is at the anchor, and there's nothing else around to clip to, am I expected to cling to some crimp 20 feet over my last cam while they leisurely eat their lunch and belay their team of three up the next pitch?

EDIT: I'm thinking of bolted anchors, a la Red Rocks.


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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Oct 24, 2013

D.Buffum wrote:
OK, as someone with only slight experience with multi-pitch, I'd like to broaden the question. I get that the anchor is first come, first serve. Fine, as far as that goes. But what are the general guidelines for when you should share? Needn't share? When one team is ascending, and another rapping? If I'm leading up a pitch, and I'm surprised to find someone else is at the anchor, and there's nothing else around to clip to, am I expected to cling to some crimp 20 feet over my last cam while they leisurely eat their lunch and belay their team of three up the next pitch?


The general rule is that you share the anchors as best as possible as to allow every one to be safe.

If I rap down on a belay and find it fully occupied I will either hang out until it is possible to get a spot. Or more than likely anchor into the belay with a bunch of slings so I am Below it. My partner comes down then we set up the next rap (typically with the other group threading the rings*) . The last person in my party has the other party clean the gear and hand it down.


  • This is why one should never clip into the rap rings of an anchor. Keep the rings free except for a rap rope.


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By Steinwayz
Oct 24, 2013

Obviously Anchors would need to be shared. I would say that the ascentionist always has the "right of way" - in this case i would have to say gtfo for the other party. If there is a LINE for this CLASSIC ROUTE then these blowhards need to respect that and understand just cause they did one pitch different doesn't mean they get to merge in on traffic ahead of everyone else.


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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 24, 2013
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

Yeah, it does sound like you climbed too slow. I would definitely hit a harder route even if it meant doing a little aid to get through it. How did it all pan out in the end?

That said we had a great time on Wolf's Head doing the famous ridge traverse, and that added many hours to the day waiting for parties ahead of us. But it didn't detract anything, since it was a sunny day and we were down before dark.


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By bearbreeder
Oct 24, 2013

D.Buffum wrote:
OK, as someone with only slight experience with multi-pitch, I'd like to broaden the question. I get that the anchor is first come, first serve. Fine, as far as that goes. But what are the general guidelines for when you should share? Needn't share? When one team is ascending, and another rapping? If I'm leading up a pitch, and I'm surprised to find someone else is at the anchor, and there's nothing else around to clip to, am I expected to cling to some crimp 20 feet over my last cam while they leisurely eat their lunch and belay their team of three up the next pitch? EDIT: I'm thinking of bolted anchors, a la Red Rocks.


as long as its not unsafe to do so you share bolt anchors if theres no other means of anchoring ...

however sometimes it may not be safe to do so because of the positioning, or they just look plain manky ...

in those cases you make the climber in the 2nd party safe, and theyll use the anchor once the 1st party is off ...

reasonable parties can work something out ... in these cases it pays to know how to build a long rope anchor

;)


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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 24, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV

Your first mistake was the choice you made to waste a perfectly good day doing something like rock climbing. Just don't make that mistake again and all of the subsequent unpleasantness that you described can be avoided in the future.


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By Zappatista
Oct 25, 2013
Book me, officer.

^^^^^^Classic, Zucco.

My response to the question from the OP on what to do is this:

Remember to always be a gentleman, and FIGHT THEM TO THE DEATH!

Gonna go out on a limb here and quote the Peppers from back when they were good:
"If you have to ask....you'll never know. Funky mutha fucka will not...be told to go!"

Maybe not applicable or reasonable but that was a great album and infinitely more interesting than the guy wondering what to do if someone cuts him in line at the bakery, I mean, climb.


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By Thaddeus Thiggins
Oct 25, 2013

Yo! That was my group and the only reason we did the variation was because you and your partner took a good 45 minutes to tie in. By the time you had tied in and finished the first pitch we had already sent "hit roll", rappeled, and climbed the first pitch to the alternate, where we saw you. Snooze you lose.


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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Oct 25, 2013
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)

And like I and others said - need more info. ^^^ Too ambiguous to comment at best given the provided circumstances. There's two sides to every story, as it goes.

Sounds to me like Thad's group wasn't entirely out of line by jumping in just to get things moving. Just out of curiosity, how did things play out after requesting they build their anchor off the ledge? Did they bail? He seems to have bailed on this thread.


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