Mountain Project Logo

Ethical Question

Original Post
sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445

A friend of mine was working on a route for a couple of years. The route lay across a 4 mile stretch of water, in a park that has no road access (we live in Alaska). Being located where it is, it's infrequent that we're able to get over there. He accessed the top of the cliff, bolted the anchors and began rap bolting the route. We ran into problems. One year we broke our drill. Another our glue in bolts were too old and had solidified. The marine weather is usually bad. We spend a lot of time during the summer out of state, etc etc etc....Yes, the route was taking a long time to finish. It needed two more bolts before we were ready to try and lead it.

One day we were over in the area on a different route when some other locals showed up. One of them racked up and started leading the route. He managed to protect the sections we were going to add the last two bolts by slinging this shitty sharp horn of rock and plugging a cam into a flaring horrible crack. My friend mentioned to him that the route hadn't been finished and the dude then made a snide comment about how he led it last year, blah blah blah.

Well, we consider the guy to be an asshole and have no sense of ethics when it comes to staying off someone else's route that's in process. Of course my friend was bummed, and felt slighted because he spent all of that time cleaning the route, purchasing the bolts, installing the anchor etc.

Now, my question is this. My friend considers this route to now be the responsibility of the dude who stole it from him and had gotten the FA. But, we still wish the route had the last two bolts that it needs in order to be led safely and enjoyably. Is it considered retro-bolting if we go ahead and finish the route ourselves? Would it be ethical to finish the route as we intended, even after someone stole it and established the FA on the route as it currently stands?

Pretty strange circumstances. Would love to hear opinions on this matter.

Clint Helander · · Anchorage, AK · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 612

A: It's your route. Do with it as you please. Finish bolting it.

B: It ain't Yosemite granite. It's Kenai schist. Don't sweat it too much.

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445

Yeah, it's not world class climbing, but it's actually decent rock. Compared to the Seward highway climbs and even Skilak Lake, it's amazingly good. Some weird intrusion of granitic rock. The route in question was the gem of the crag too. It lies adjacent to Kachemak Crack. Anyhow, thanks for your input.

Jacob Smith · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 230

what do you know, an ethical dilemma thread that actually contains an ethical dilemma!
Common-sense rules of route establishment would say that yes, you should go ahead and put in the last two bolts, it is your route after all.
But that would contradict the unwritten, yet much referenced, rights of the first ascensionist to have the route preserved in whatever (shitty) way they established it. [insert snide, yet idiotic, comment about how if you want something well bolted you should go somewhere else, here].

Lately I have been having doubts about the first-come-first-served ethic and your story is exactly the example I have been looking for, it demonstrates that there is more to route development than a first ascent. The only real reasons to think otherwise are that either 1) you are the one who got there first and you want to preserve your status or 2) your ego is dependent on the number of shitfest death routes you have led and having people fix up those routes into actually decent lines ruins it for you.

This gets at my general frustration with climbers who think that those who lead dangerous nonsense routes have bigger balls/are better climbers/are superior people. They don't and they aren't and climbing should not be at the mercy of a few arrogant assholes with immortality complexes and inflated senses of their own exceptionalism, which is what holding up the rights of the first ascensionist often seems to lead to.

Skullybones · · Desert SW · Joined May 2013 · Points: 46

I'd wager to guess that if there happened to be two extra bolts the next time it gets climbed, there will be no complaints.

C Williams · · Sketchy, Blackvanistan · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 1,556

Finish YOUR route. I feel the FA ethical issues are negated considering the route snaking bs involved. Alaska is the last place where we should have to concern ourselves with red tagging route projects, no matter the rock quality but then again there are THOSE people out there. Party on, we need more good routes around here.

Dr. Long Arm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 15

I find it hysterical that this even needs to be debated. Route/bolting ethics have zero basis in reality and 100% basis on ego. Finish bolting your damn route!

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

Also. Junkpunch the dude. Video it. Post it here.

Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650

Out of curiosity, how was the other climber to know that the route was unfinished and that it was not to be climbed? I'm curious about this route but I'm also generally curious regarding FA's. Thanks

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Did you actually ask the FA what he'd think about adding the bolts and finishing the route as intended?

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
Shelton Hatfield wrote:Out of curiosity, how was the other climber to know that the route was unfinished and that it was not to be climbed? I'm curious about this route but I'm also generally curious regarding FA's. Thanks
There's maybe a half dozen climbers in the community, and we have maybe a half dozen routes between us. He knew. And, to top it off, he named the route "You snooze...you lose".
Obvious dick move.
sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445
csproul wrote:Did you actually ask the FA what he'd think about adding the bolts and finishing the route as intended?
No, we haven't.
Shelton Hatfield · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 650
drmartindell wrote: There's maybe a half dozen climbers in the community, and we have maybe a half dozen routes between us. He knew. And, to top it off, he named the route "You snooze...you lose". Obvious dick move.
That does sound like a dick move. It seems obvious to me that it would have been much more appropriate for him to talk to you about the route rather than climbing it and giving it a snarky name.

Again, wondering generally, what is "standard protocol" for getting on someone else's route? At what point could a route be considered abandoned? At what point would you no longer feel the need to ask the equippers permission to get on the route? One year after they've touched it? Five? Ten? Ever? Thanks for the info

EDIT: sorry, just realized this is a bit of a thread hijack. not my intention
barnaclebob · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 0

Your friend shouldn't have started a route he couldn't complete in a timely manner or at least he shouldn't have been upset when someone else got on it after a few YEARS for christ sake. But the other guy shouldn't have been a dick about it and he should have at least attempted communication first.

Go back and add the bolts, thanks for your contribution to climbing.

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
drmartindell wrote: There's maybe a half dozen climbers in the community, and we have maybe a half dozen routes between us. He knew. And, to top it off, he named the route "You snooze...you lose". Obvious dick move.
Hahahaha that's awesome! Maybe you shouldn't have taken so many YEARS to ATTEMPT sending it.
Ian Cavanaugh · · Ketchum, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 620

What we have here is a failure to communicate! With only 6 people in you climbing community I would expect you be a little more forward with each other. The person that lead 'your' route should have asked if it was open. You could have also made it more clear that it was still in the process. then again with only 6 routes in your area, I wouldn't wait years for someone to go add bolts either. I would have gone in and done it myself or just as the FA did, find a way to protect it on gear. Sound as though the FA did it in better style, if you can get gear, don't bolt. Since the route has already been FA'ed then I would say it stay as it is. You should have finished it sooner or lead it in better style. I am not trying to be a dick about this situation. For me, rock is rock and not owned by anyone. I do believe in being respectful where someone has put in work on cleaning and bolting but I also think there is a time limit you get. In some areas, if the route is equipped, you might only have a day before someone else gets on it. I had this situation happen to me a few years ago. I had bolted a route, luckily the day a put the last bolt in I sent it, and a few days later a few climber in my area told me about an email he receive from another climber claiming the FA of my and a friends route. I thought it was a dick move, but didn't really affect me as I did the route. In your case, with so few routes around, I would say a year, maybe 2 if you are luckily but with so few routes, you had to some what expect it. Now get strong, find the gear and go get the second ascent. my vote, no bolts

AdamHertzberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 0

If the FA used your bolts for the FA, then there's no dilemma, bolt the rest of the route.

That said, if you can't find humor in the relevant name he gave the route that was taking you years to complete, then you have some self examination to do.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

wtf -- this topic has nothing to do with finding life on mars

two to three years to bolt a half pitch of shit rock that someone could basically solo

J. Stark · · Iowa · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 649

Route poachers are pieces of shit. Everybody is eventually going to able to climb the route. It's hard, thankless work putting up new routes and the developers should get first dibs on climbing it. Period. Red tags should always be respected. If you poach a route you should expect a punch in the face. A little harsh, but it's lord of the flies out in the middle of nowhere.

J. Stark · · Iowa · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 649

As is your choice as the developer. However if the person putting in the work would like first go, then I say, let them.

In either scenario the community gets more climbing.

If I'm a tool can I be Ivan Greene's chisel? Infamous & and made of steel.

Sorden · · Estes Park, CO · Joined Sep 2003 · Points: 95

A quotable climber once said, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Ethical dilemma obliterated.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Ethical Question"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.