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Estimate the grade.
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By Orphaned
Oct 29, 2010

I'm somewhat baffled by this somewhat contrived problem.

There are 6 deep water solo routes in a cove up to 11d in difficulty. All but one of them are 11b or harder, all routes are 20 to 30 feet tall. Recently we discovered a few key holds that would allow us to traverse the entire cove, starting on the far right and finishing on the far left. The crux of each route is included in the traverse.

All the ratings in the cove are based on pure bouldering difficulty, not endurance. The 11d happens to come at the end of the traverse. Overall, the route is probably 130' long, no rests, all overhanging, and almost always in the 5.11 range.

I've recently sent this route and I'm drawing a blank as for how to rate it. On the one hand, I'll be the first to admit that the hardest move on the route is 11d or about v3-v4. Based on the number of times this route put me in the water (months of falling) and the amount of effort I needed to actually finish this route, it's plainly obvious that it's harder. It would be a joke to call this 11d. I've tentatively called it 5.12.

So the question is this, how much should endurance factor into a route? A simple sequence of 11d moves is not so simple when taken at the end of such a long route. Honestly, it felt 5.13- to me, and harder than some routes of that grade I've climbed.

I'm baffled, without ever seeing the route, please rate it for me.


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Oct 29, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

If it were a 130foot long crack in the creek with all 5.9 moves and no rests, what would you give it?

No way I'm grading it but I think it's obvious that endurance comes into play.


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By Monomaniac
Administrator
From Morrison, CO
Oct 29, 2010
Insurrection, 5.14c.  Photo Adam Sanders.

johnL wrote:
it felt 5.13- to me


Sounds like its 5.13-.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Oct 29, 2010
Bucky

Monomaniac wrote:
Sounds like its 5.13-.


No way! You see the Fat-Bat suit he's wearing! Gotta be mid 14 with that on.


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By Gunkiemike
Oct 30, 2010

So it's all spray, no splash?


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By Ellis Whitson
From Nomadia, Gypsyville
Oct 30, 2010

The Madness Cave at The Red comes to mind when considering this. BOHICA for instance is rated .13b and has no moves harder than around V3/4, it is simply an overhanging 100 ft. pumpfest. I think a rating in the 13- range seems fairly legitimate for what you described.


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By Adam Stackhouse
Administrator
Oct 30, 2010
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013

Call it 11d but give it 5 stars


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Oct 30, 2010
Stabby

Difficult route yet hard to define the grade? Tradition dictates that you tell people its .9+


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By Bud Martin
From Bozeman, MT
Oct 30, 2010

Mike Lane wrote:
Difficult route yet hard to define the grade? Tradition dictates that you tell people its .9+


5.9 A2


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By RyanJames
Oct 30, 2010
Photo by Aaron Lavinsky

I'd put the "5.12?" on it and wait till a couple people send, then go from there.


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By no1nprtclr
From Front range Colorado
Oct 30, 2010

That's like asking a mechanic to diagnose a vehicle problem over the phone...



My two pennies.
Juan


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By David Houston
From Boulder, Colorado
Oct 30, 2010
J-Tree

The Car Guys rock!

But back to the original topic: I think the rating is obviously 13- if you are talking to a worse climber than you and 11d if you are speaking with a better climber.

More seriously this is related to another beef of mine: Virtually every profile on MP indicates that we climb harder sport than trad. Doesn't that mean that we should be adjusting the ratings to accommodate the effort it takes to place gear? Personally I think a trad route should be graded based on an onsight placing all gear and a sport route should be based on a redpoint after working out the moves. I think this would reflect the core values of each type of climbing. Otherwise we should just completely separtate the rating systems. [full disclosure: I enjoy both trad and sport]


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By David Appelhans
From Lafayette
Oct 30, 2010
Imaginate

David Houston wrote:
The Car Guys rock! But back to the original topic: I think the rating is obviously 13- if you are talking to a worse climber than you and 11d if you are speaking with a better climber. More seriously this is related to another beef of mine: Virtually every profile on MP indicates that we climb harder sport than trad. Doesn't that mean that we should be adjusting the ratings to accommodate the effort it takes to place gear? Personally I think a trad route should be graded based on an onsight placing all gear and a sport route should be based on a redpoint after working out the moves. I think this would reflect the core values of each type of climbing. Otherwise we should just completely separtate the rating systems. [full disclosure: I enjoy both trad and sport]


Yeah, sport climbs are usually soft. Tell those guys to stop over grading everything. ;)


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By Jim Gloeckler
From Denver, Colo.
Oct 30, 2010

JohnL
You said "All the ratings in the cove are based on pure bouldering difficulty, not endurance". Also that it was contrived. Due to the fact that I've never climbed that hard, I really wouldn't know for sure but would suggest a rating of 5.11d cdwss. Which stands for 5.11d contrived deep water solo sandbag. The climbers that repeat the route will probably agree.........but then you might consider just giving it a V grade since that's what deep water soloing is IMO.


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By Buff Johnson
Oct 30, 2010
smiley face

Pardon me chaps, but yer off yer rocker ef you'll place a yds grade on this patch. I suggest a Rum Swizzle 6 will do fine


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Oct 31, 2010

go with the laugh test. Give it the lowest grade you can say to your buddies out loud and keep a straight face.


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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Oct 31, 2010
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan

Sounds to me like a 5.11d S/VS to a sweet 5.7 overhanging flake traverse 400 feet off the deck.

At least you knew you were there!


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