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Equalizing Figure 8 Rope Anchor
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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Nov 28, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

Haha Ive got sport multi-pitch down but if its a trad lead sure i don't mind. I still know who shes going home with and i don't have to worry about her. Just try not to spit too much game otherwise she'll have a brand new trad rack. ;) haha

Thanks for the link and a good laugh.


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By eric schweitzer
From Bend, Oregon
Nov 28, 2012
SITTING ATOP THE CHIEF

Me too, i learned something too. Now, lets all just take it easy, "sticks and stones..."

also: guideline #1 : don't be a ...


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By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Nov 28, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

Just don't kill cute gf because you obviously don't have the necessary skills to keep her safe on the rock in a multi pitch setting. Your questions are silly and show you don't know enough to even be doing sport mp. Just sayin Cali brah.


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Nov 28, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

@medic:
How do you know?
I ask one question about anchoring with the rope over 3 points and every cocky rock climber in the world comes back with,"oh my god! You don't know!? pshh wow good luck." Lets all get somethin straight, bein good at rope technique does'nt make you a God or better than anyone else. I'n confident in my climbing and so are those who ive clbed with and seen my techniques. I may not know everything there is but one thing is for sure im done learning from polling forums. The half that help get buried in assholes messages and then run their mouth behind their desk branding all who ask questions as inferior. You pricks started somewhere, but its okay. Live and learn.

Whats sad is, when i started rock climbing, (in gyms oh no!) everyone was so nice. Helpful. And i got along well with everyone. When i went outside to the local crag i met good people who really wanted to share their love of the sport and i was seriously overjoyed. But when i went online, expecting to chat among other kind people i found more snobs than anything else. You all enjoy talking shit from your desks, I will accomplish more things in my life by going out and enjoying the peaceful life of climbing with real people.

To those who were kind. Thank you. It's you guys that really help make the sport look so amazing.

Ill ward others who wish to pry into forums by saying look but never touch. Rock forums turn hearts to stone.


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By Nicole Renee
From Alpine, Ca
Nov 28, 2012
Me at the first pitch of our climb ready to belay

Medic741 wrote:
Just don't kill cute gf because you obviously don't have the necessary skills to keep her safe on the rock in a multi pitch setting. Your questions are silly and show you don't know enough to even be doing sport mp. Just sayin Cali brah.


You know what I find sad, is that people on MP are so much drama. Honestly this site was interesting because it seemed like a good place to ask a question and get some input or gain some information.
A question is a question people. Why do you have to judge? Are you all that insecure and immature that you have to pose crude and juvenile remarks? I mean seriously how old are you? This isn't a place to he ass holes. Of you're that desperate for attention then I feel sorry for you.
It's really funny that you guys judge other based on a simply question.
Who knew hat asking a question would lead to so much drama. It's pathetic. I mean do you guys really take the time to go out of your way to be such dicks or does it come naturally? Its comical.

And for the record, none of you even know half the people your trashing. You don't know how much research they put into learning techniques in climbing. You don't know how much they practice and test certain anchors. You don't know anything about the person other than your hate towards their questions.
It's a questions people. When somebody doesn't know something they ask a question for some helpful insight on that matter. Its sad to me that instead of help, they get immature responses like this one above.

I got news for all of you, none of you are perfect. None of you know everything. All of you started somewhere at some point. Instead of being malicious towards others questions why don't you try and help them. They were humble enough to admit they need help so why don't you all who claim to be so wise share your wisdom instead of mouthing off like a bunch of immature children.

Hopefully you all can grow up one day. Until then, I feel sorry for whoever else asks a question and gets bombarded with such hateful comments.

Who would have though that asking a question would lead to such hate?
Sad.....


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By Nicole Renee
From Alpine, Ca
Nov 28, 2012
Me at the first pitch of our climb ready to belay

Ps.
I wouldn't bother replying because I could care less what you all think or have to say about me or anything I said.
Your opinions simply don't matter to me. Have a great night:)


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By Zappatista
Nov 29, 2012
Book me, officer.

Yeah, this is pretty much how helpful the site has gotten of late.

Real underlying lesson: If you seek pleasant company and have a lock with a goodlooking girl, MP is not the place for you.

For the record, I have used Equalizing Figure 8 knots from time to time, but usually only as a last resort when out of slings. There are a lot of other options that are generally more secure and pleasant to deal with, i.e. alpine equalizer, equalette, and so on-a site search should allow you to check out info on those and other methods discussed ad nauseum. Asking doesn't make you a chromosome-deficient troglodytic Reginald Genital Cuffingtard for seeking advice from theoretically experienced and knowledgable climbers, it's just hard to sort through the chaff enough to glean some useful information at times.


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By Chris Norwood
From San Diego, CA
Nov 29, 2012
High on the Beckey Route on the Bastille Buttress of Lone Pine Peak

John has a good base plan laid out for building 3 piece gear anchors with the rope, but I have a couple suggestions to add to his drawing. After cloving into the first piece, draw that loop down large enough for a knot/masterpoint and leave it hanging, then clove the second piece. Then clove to locker on belay loop before going back up to the third piece and cloving it. (Just as he shows but leave more rope between the 1st and 2nd piece. now, with the "dotted line" piece of rope, grab a bight of that together with the first loop of slack, and tie a single knot (overhand, fig 8, whatever) between those two pieces. This will give you a masterpoint that is equalized between the three pieces of gear (two strands of rope at the masterpoint) and you will be distributing your weight among the 3 pieces too. You can then belay the second off this point.

It works well in a pinch, but realistically a standard cordalette is a lot easier in my opinion. Mainly because it's harder to adjust your stance as well once the entire rope and equalization relies on how you first set up the anchor. With a cordalette, you can just adjust your cloved tether point whenever you want without affecting equalization.

Another alternative with the rope -- if the three pieces are really close to each other (ideally horizontally), you can tie a fig 8 + bunny ears, clip one loop to one piece, and clove the second loop to the two pieces, kind of like you would with the loops of an equalette.

Just a couple thoughts off the top of my head.


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By Zappatista
Nov 29, 2012
Book me, officer.

^^^Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand- cue the creepy.


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By Reginald McChufferton
Nov 29, 2012

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.


By Nicole Renee
From Alpine, Ca
Nov 29, 2012
Me at the first pitch of our climb ready to belay

@smarty and@chris: thank you for the information and for being mature. Apparently it's a rarity now a days.


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By Kelly Cordes
Nov 29, 2012

My god, some of you guys are genuine dickheads. The original poster asks a legit question, puts up with your snarkiness to a point (beyond what anybody would accept in person, for sure), and he gets this? Unreal.


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By bearbreeder
Nov 29, 2012

well im going to say this as nicely as possible ...

as a person who was almost killed by what someone learned on the "internet" ... and had to correct a few potentially deadly issues among newer climbers (ESPECIALLY rapping) that they "learned" online ...

internet forums are the absolute worse place for a beginner to "learn" stuff ... at best what you will learn is that things like PASes, screamers, 7 kn biners, cross loading belay biners,, etc, etc .. are "dangerous" and worry about those or worry about fancy anchoring, while not paying proper attention to the things that WILL kill you like poor belaying, rockfall, cleaning the anchors, rapping, etc ...

at worst you learn something partially or wrongly, think you know how to apply it, your partner trust you ... and it gets them in a bad spot or worse ...

even information from the "best" accredited sites are often incomplete ... and on forums there is rarely any checks, its basically some old geezer who taking away time from watching THE EIGER SANCTION reruns to type on his old commodore 64 ... or some other such

IF you want to go learn as a beginner ... go out with someone ... or at the very least go get those falcon/mountaineers books and work from there ... or go to the sites that have a real investment (ukclimbing, uiaa, climbing.com, rockandice) in "safety" ...

the other thing is to absolutely KISS ... when you are new,complicated kills ... remember that a lot of what is on some blogs and forums require you have a pretty good understanding and experience of things already ...

fancy anchors and techniques wont make you climb any better when you start ... they will however be an issue if your screw em up, especially when you are cold tired hungry in the dark a few pitches up ...

if youre starting out ... just used a cordelette ... its generally what is taught to new climbers right off the bat because its KISS .... once you understand more, do it however you want as long as you fully understand it

for anchoring in with the rope ... this is what i use ... because its KISS, if you can tie a cord anchor you remember this even if youre cold, tired hungry, and its gusting winds ...



however you shouldnt follow my advice off the intrawebs, but go out and ask a real person ...


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By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 29, 2012
The traverse out to the Yellow Ridge on the Dogstick Ridge link-up.  Photo by Myriam Bouchard

I agree with Kelly Cordes. A guy asks a legitimate question and gets a load of crap for his trouble. The real problem with the internet isn't necessarily bad information; you get highly experienced opinions and international experts weighing in, as has happened on this thread. But their voices, which are often matter-of-fact, can be easily drowned out by the chorus of flamers and folks who believe in insult rather than evidence. So if you care to subject yourself to the abuse that seems to come with internet participation, you'll have to learn good filtering techniques to come away with much more than a headache.

The least useful word in anchor discussions is "equalization:" we'd all be so much better off if it could simply be banned. Equalization of loads is a wonderful idea. It is achievable in theory, and perhaps one day we will have some compact, light weight nearly frictionless gizmos that make it a practical reality. But right now it is simply a myth. Moreover, methods that might in theory provide equalization involve potential extension of the anchor if a piece fails, and the bad consequences of extension have been underplayed in the literature and commentary. The best approach right now is not to use anything that can move if any part of the anchor fails.

Good anchor rigging should attempt to distribute the load as much as possible within the realm of practicality and efficiency. Understand that in any three-point anchor you rig, one of the pieces is likely to get half the total load or considerably more. If the pieces aren't very good by themselves, there is no way of tying them together at present that will guarantee an acceptable anchor, and it is sadly possible that the whole thing may not be much stronger than the best single piece.

The best strategy, if it is a viable option, is to try to build a better anchor in another location, rather than adding crappy pieces to the current anchor and then imagining that you can mitigate the weakness of the pieces by some rigging strategy.

If you are a beginner, I thing bearbreeder's advice to start out with a classical 7mm cordelette is the right idea. It is simple, robust, and relatively foolproof. If one arm has to be much longer than the others, you can mitigate the effect by using dyneema slings on the remote piece to keep the cordelette arms more nearly equal in length.

You can progress to rope-only methods as your experience and comfort with rigging methods increases and the need to be more efficient and carry less crap assert themselves. Most people who are good at fast effective anchoring are very proficient in the use of clove hitches, but there are notable counterexamples who set up their anchors with figure-eight and butterfly knots. Have a look at some of Mark Hudon's big-wall posts on Supertopo to see how a master sets up simple clean rigging for potentially complicated wall anchors with nary a clove hitch in sight.


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By Br'er Rabbit
From The Briar Patch
Nov 29, 2012
'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en bawn in a brier-patch!'

Anything on the topic by users 'rgold' or 'Jim Titt' should be considered worthwhile....and it comes from the internet (gasp!).

Here's Mark's PDF link on anchoring....ANCHORS


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Nov 29, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

Thank you Rgold for you response and help. I am not a beginner and am actually quite profficient when it comes to cords and slings. Ive had extensive practice in the fields with cordelletes, equalettes, ACR's, Alpine equalizers, sliding x's and the many different knots and methods of tying the said. I can also efficiently tie cloves, alpine butterflys, munter mules, bowlines and all the other knots as well. For self rescue i can create mechanical advamtage pullies as well simple prusik assisted hoists for time efficiency. Im good with passing a knot on rappel, sending by prusik or any other friction type knots, (bachmann, Kleimheist, etc.) Im good at extending anchors and the 3 most commen belay methods and so many other little things i shouldn't have to explain myself on (but unfortunately must include something close to a resume before asking a question on a forum ) Anyway, when i mastered all of these techniques i decided to learn rope anchors to become more savy with a rope, learning i guess for me is the equivelent of getting high. Unfortunately, like i said in my OP, books hardly brush the topic so after quite a bit of research (including finding your excellent rope anchor photo that is pretty much all over the internet. Awesome thanks) i found the figure 8 on a loop AKA bunny ears method to be most trusted for two points. Then i found that damned equalizing fig 8 on a vid in the same thread and couldnt find anythin on it but youtube. I dont trust youtube. My brother found a vid on youtube to learn to belay and while climbing i look down like, "what the hell are you doing?" I digress.
This equalizing fig 8 i played with but failing pieces led to great extension and it led me here to further my research. The second Jim Titt (being an engineer and climber who is well trusted) said nay i dismissed the idea. Then i thought, But hell, while ive got this thread open lets see what else i can dig up... and here we are.

Life explained i am done with replying to this thread. I trust your word as well Rgold as you too have built up a positive name in climbing forums everywhere. i will definitely equilize only when all others can be accomplished in an anchor efficiently. Thank you as well as everyone else who posted with links and outlooks and anything elae anchor related you have all helped me a lot. To you who continue to scrutinize with false conclusions and slander those who ask questions please continue to do so, its you weak that allow for those with excellent information to shine so bright.

This is my final post in this particular thread as i would not like to be bombarded with any other meaningless insults. However, i will be reading. So to those of you who wish to respond to my anchoring question and would like to help i would still appreciate it. My thanks in advance. Goodbye.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 29, 2012
OTL

This is good stuff.

First off - the question was answered in the first couple of replies before anyone went into butt-hurt territory.

"Ive had extensive practice in the fields with... ...sending by prusik or any other friction type knots, (bachmann, Kleimheist, etc.)"

You listed a whole lotta shit that I haven't tried to do and likely most of the climbers at most of the crags haven't done. That's what the snarky posters were getting at - all this reading and shit isn't what you need - you need to get out and climb multi to get a feel for it and truly learn.

You've been getting trolled b/c of the way you come across and the questions you've asked. Simple as that. Oh, and you keep responding (ie feeding them).
Its the Internet.

At least its been entertaining; whether or not anything was learned.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Nov 29, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
i will definitely equilize only when all others can be accomplished in an anchor efficiently.


Chase, this isn't what rgold is saying. He's saying, like others, myself included, to focus on getting super solid placements and to basically forget load distribution among all the pieces in your anchor via some sort of equalization rigging. The situation that would require this kind of rigging is when you have pieces in your anchor that aren't bomber, or at the very least less than ideal. As a beginning gear leader, you should never find yourself building an anchor with less than ideal placements.

He's also correct with regard to asking for advice on the internet. If you're asking the question, it means you are not well versed, and should remain humble. This is not to say that you have to eat all the shitty responses with a smile on your face, but you have to realize that it comes with the territory when asking for advice in forums. Some people just get a kick out of getting a rise out of someone. Some people even though ultimately correct, will get a dig in. No way around it.

It is ultimately up to you as the OP of this type of "advice thread" to sift through the bullshit, ignore it, and derive what good content there is. Otherwise, it just becomes a flamefest and the original intent is lost and it ends up being a huge waste of time- except for the people that were entertained. Good luck, and ask your gf to wear less clothing and post more pics.


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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Nov 29, 2012
tanuki

+1000


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 2, 2012
modern man

whats KISS?

and yes, I'm a dumbass.


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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Dec 2, 2012
Belay

"Keep It Simple, Stupid"


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Dec 2, 2012
modern man

Peter Franzen wrote:
"Keep It Simple, Stupid"


ahh, I like it.

this is why I always tie in with a doubled back overhand knot! talk about an easy knot


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By Reginald McChufferton
Dec 2, 2012

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.


By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 2, 2012
El Chorro

There is so much wrong with this thread.


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By Zappatista
Dec 2, 2012
Book me, officer.

"Wisdom"

Creating multiple accounts on a site to harass newcomers and people posting under their own names makes you a coward and telegraphs your dissatisfaction with your own life through transferance to others.

Those that attempt to be helpful will become objects of scorn by the naysayers by virtue of the contrast between the spirit of giving inherent in all mentoring, versus the spirit of monkeys throwing shit at tourists through the bars of the cages they've chosen for themselves (ie empty, meaningless lives)

The mods will read name-calling, harassment, and trolling, and ignore it, I'm not touching this one, if I was modding (not an offer) I'd be deleting IP adresses left and right to keep the Reginalds and so on on their toes and hopefully off the site. You explain this one to me, I'm not sure how anonymous trolls lambasting new users like Chase and Nicole who are trying to learn benefits anyone save the online bullies, who temporarily distract themselves from their stalker-altars or whatever they're doing otherwise.

Wisdom, "wisdom", or however you want to call it-guess I'll take my mom's basement comments, getting called a bitch, and put all of that kindness and respect to work in some useful manner. Thanks for the motivation, kids-your kind words are appreciated, as ever.


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