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Equalette Top - Belay Masterpoint Question... help?
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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Oct 28, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

Ive used the equalette many times as a TR but have never thought of using it for multi-pitch. I have came across an issue. This may be a silly question and im just not thinking clearly but if the master point is 2 carabiners through both seperate strands, for top - belay do i tie in to that master point with a fig 8 and re-direct my rope through another two carabiners? Do i redirect Through the same two? (i dnt like runnin it like that w the friction) Its obvious i couldnt use my direct belay because an atc guide doesnt have enough room for two carabiners to fit through that little hole. Do i tie in somewhere else? At one of the legs and back it up? Tree?
May be silly but id still like to know what others are doing.
(PS im fully aware there are other anchors to use and could use another but id like to know about this one. I suppose i could always go in-direct as well but...)
Thanks in advance! :)


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By ARowland
Oct 28, 2012

I'm not sure I 100% understand your question, but this is how I would do it. I use a cordalette or the rope, but once the master point is established, it's all the same.

Don't think of the pair of carabiners you've been using as the master point, the real master point is what you've clipped them into. This may be the source of your confusion. So I would generally tie into the anchor with a clove hitch on a locker through the master point. I typically belay directly off the harness, but if you're going to use an autoblock device (Guide/Reverso) you just put it on a separate locker on the master point. Using two biners together on an anchor is really only for top rope setups where it will be impossible to keep an eye on the anchor to see if anything is amiss.

But frankly, along with all the other disclaimers, yer gunna die, etc., I would not even bother with belaying off the anchor. Clip in with the rope clove hitched onto a locker, and belay straight off your belay loop just as if you were on the ground. This is the most straightforward and familiar technique already, so it's what you should consider the default method. If it makes the belay stance more comfortable, then you can redirect the rope through a biner on the anchor, such that the rope runs through your belay device, up through a biner on the anchor, and then down to your seconding climber.


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By Reginald McChufferton
Oct 28, 2012

What is it about MP that encourages these types of questions?

Perhaps you should ask your question over at ST. You'll get an answer to your question, although probably not the one you were hoping for.

You need a climbing mentor, some classes, a guide, more practice or some combination of all of the above.

If you're still having trouble figuring this out then it would probably stand to reason that you should just stick with top roping for a little while longer.


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By Jim Titt
From Germany
Oct 28, 2012

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
Ive used the equalette many times as a TR but have never thought of using it for multi-pitch. I have came across an issue. This may be a silly question and im just not thinking clearly but if the master point is 2 carabiners through both seperate strands, for top - belay do i tie in to that master point with a fig 8 and re-direct my rope through another two carabiners? Do i redirect Through the same two? (i dnt like runnin it like that w the friction) Its obvious i couldnt use my direct belay because an atc guide doesnt have enough room for two carabiners to fit through that little hole. Do i tie in somewhere else? At one of the legs and back it up? Tree? May be silly but id still like to know what others are doing. (PS im fully aware there are other anchors to use and could use another but id like to know about this one. I suppose i could always go in-direct as well but...) Thanks in advance! :)


You tie into the two karabiners. You redirect through a single karabiner clipped into the two biners.
More sensibly you dump the equalette concept by tying a masterpoint in it and continue as the previous posters said.


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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Oct 28, 2012
...

"Perhaps you should ask your question over at ST. You'll get an answer to your question, although probably not the one you were hoping for."


Send him on over!

I'll see to it that he get's a proper burial...

LOL!


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Oct 28, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

@jimtitt
thats what i did. Tied into the two carabs wit a fig 8 backed it up at a leg. Got advice from a guide who wasnt a ***** like half the know it alls in these forums
Ps: I know the "standard method" but was confused with the equalette. Thank you to those who actually answered seriously.
To the rest, **** ***.


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By michaeltarne
Oct 28, 2012

I don't really see any know it alls. The equalette probably isn't the best choice for this scenario, and a big part of climbing is knowing tons of tricks because there are a million different situations and no right answer. Second, eight on a bight is okay, but I much prefer a clove hitch.


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By Dankasaurus
From Lyons, CO
Oct 29, 2012

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
To the rest, **** ***.


I didn't know there were gibronis hardcore on the west coast. Thanks for the new information.


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By Reginald McChufferton
Oct 29, 2012

Like I said it's probably not the answer you were hoping for. You even tried to qualify the answers you got in your OP. Sorry the real world didn't turn out the way you had it worked out in your head.

Anyway...just use the rope.


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By cassondra
From las vegas, NV
Oct 29, 2012
in repose

you could use just one locker to tie in and another to belay off the anchor with an auto locking device, and put them on a magic x on the 2 strands between the knots which comprise the master point on the equalette.


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By tooTALLtim
From Boulder, CO
Oct 29, 2012
Me on Land of Ra, Cadillac Crag, Eldorado. <br /> <br />Thanks for the picture Craig Muderlak!

We talked about the equallette a bit in this forum post, and I slapped some pictures on there. Take a look at this picture:


Equalette master point detail
Equalette master point detail


I usually slap a locker on (as the picture shows) and clove into that. I then put another locker on the same way and put my ATC in guide mode on that carabiner. Done. Sometimes the ATC binds up with my clove if I'm weighing it (e.g. leaning back on it at a hanging belay), so I'll sometimes also slap my PAS into one of the "top shelf" arms, i.e., on of the arms above the master point. To the point, I use the equalette about 20% of the time, but at those times I enjoy knowing how to tie it efficiently.

I think your confusion lies with "if master point is 2 carabiners through both separate strands". Nope, it's just one biner on a sliding x through both strands. It may not seem intuitive at first if you're used to seeing in go through three strands of your cordelette, but if you're using cordelette of the proper strength, it's plenty strong, e.g., two strands of 6-8kn each = a damn strong master point.

Please get John Long's Climbing Anchors for more info, or just PM me.


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Oct 29, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

Equalette Masterpoint
Equalette Masterpoint


The photo above is from a trusted climbing rescue website. I have difficulty clove hitching these at the same time so i use a fig 8.



Sliding Equalizer
Sliding Equalizer


To the person who posted the photo, with all due respect, i believe that is a sliding equalizer not an equalette and I do own JL's books and if i recall he says this method is great too but does not equalize quite as well and creates more friction. I might have to reread though its been a while.

To everyone else, i know that situations vary along anchor stations and it is ideal to have many different methods to do so. I just want to add this to the bag of tricks. Thanks everyone tho for the help. :)


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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Oct 29, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.

What is a Equalette????

All this is getting confusing, I tie in with the rope.

Do you really think you need to equalize off of bolts????

When Sport Climbing.... I use a quick draw on each bolt. If you need something longer... go for some trusty runners, longer??? longer runners.

Wish to make it bombproof?

Add in some lockers.

This is all so simple.

Keep it that way.


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By Reginald McChufferton
Oct 29, 2012



"To the person who posted the photo, with all due respect, i believe that is a sliding equalizer not an equalette and I do own JL's books and if i recall he says this method is great too but does not equalize quite as well and creates more friction. I might have to reread though its been a while."

With all due respect Chase...find a partner that knows what they're doing. You obviously have not been able to comprehend the information from JL's book and your habit of continually insisting that the answers you're getting are wrong, shows you don't really have a clue.

Incidentally, Mr. Long has changed his tune a bit in regards to how wonderful the Equallette is since several people have tested it and found that it doesn't always perform as advertised. Never hurts knowing some of these techniques given that you understand their uses and limitations but this particular anchor method seems to be a bit difficult for you to grasp.

That photo most certainly IS an equallette. It does not require two lockers at the master point. There are probably about a million pages on the internet dedicated to this question and the myriad ways of rigging with an equallette. Google is your friend.

Anyway...just use the rope.


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By coldatom
From Cambridge, MA
Oct 29, 2012
Jurassic Park

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
do i tie in to that master point with a fig 8

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
I have difficulty clove hitching these at the same time so i use a fig 8.


Chase,
Get more comfortable with the clove hitch. Learn to tie it one handed. Practice. It sounds like you are relying too much on the fig 8 on a bight. The clove is faster. More importantly, it makes adjusting lengths easy, so you can better position yourself and equalize your anchor, which is ultimately safer.


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Oct 29, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

Hard for me to grasp? idk what it is about people in the safety of their own home can sit in their chair n spit some really rude **** when someone just wants to learn somethin.

@coldatom
Thank you for not bein a jerk. I can tie a clove hotch one handed pretty quickly with either hand but i use two lockers with that little ball you gotta push before it twists and when you got to of em opposite n opposed its easier to just do a quick fig 8. But i definitely agree its really nice for easily adjusting length. :)

oh n ps @regina
I still say its an equalizer. Youre basically making an extended sliding x. Equalette has a diff concept.

@guy
I 100% agree with you. Bolts i can easily just throw in draws/runners but it never hurts to learn. . .
Especially simce eventually i wanna start trad climbin. N i know... im prepared to die, dont gotta say it. ha

Okay, so i dnt wanna get into any debate about anything like bolts, or anythin else really my question has been answered due to the polite and helpful responses on here as well as a nice guide. Thanks all for helping. Now ima go TR off a quad. ;)


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By Reginald McChufferton
Oct 29, 2012

ChaseLeoncini wrote:
I still say its an equalizer. Youre basically making an extended sliding x. Equalette has a diff concept.


Really. Please elaborate on how two limiter knots in the middle of a cord about 10 inches apart creating a masterpoint that is clipped with a biner is NOT an equalette. Then please define for the rest of us idiots on here what exactly IS an equallette according to you.

Thanks.


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By Chris Norwood
From San Diego, CA
Oct 29, 2012
Hobbit Roof

Reginald McChufferton wrote:
Really. Please elaborate on how two limiter knots in the middle of a cord about 10 inches apart creating a masterpoint that is clipped with a biner is NOT an equalette. Then please define for the rest of us idiots on here what exactly IS an equallette according to you. Thanks.


Yeah, this is true. The part of the setup that makes it an equalette is equalizing the 2-4 pieces with cloves in the loops above the limiting knots, not really what goes on at the master point. Whether you clip two lockers in, one to each strand, or clip a single locker into a sliding-x, it still dynamically equalizes the pieces cloved above. The only difference is the sliding-x allows you to be redundant at that point with only a single biner.

I'm personally not really a fan of the setup in general, and prefer to use a standard, statically equalized cordalette or the rope, its not bad if you know how to rig it quickly and safely.

Chase, don't let people get to you too much on here...it's just the way shit is on any forum, ya know. Glad you're thinking about the rope systems (that's the first step) but it is easy to get caught up in less important technicalities when you first start moving away from the simplicity of sport climbing. I'm sure once you get more mileage in, you'll develop personal preferences and get comfortable with your own system. Next time I'm back in SD, maybe we can get some laps in at mission gorge. :)


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Oct 29, 2012
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

@chrisnorwood
Sounds good man. Lookin forward to it.


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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Oct 30, 2012
CoR

The sliding X method can be used effectively with a single caribiner if you tie your equalette with one of the strands just a bit longer than the other so that they are both basically the same length when one has a twist and one does not. JLs anchor book does briefly talk about this and I can tell you it does work well.


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By John Husky
Oct 30, 2012

I use equalettes, they work well. I don't redirect belays though. I belay the second from me straight down. I don't like the clutter that redirects create at the anchor.


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By Kiri Namtvedt
Feb 18, 2014

I actually just read the lastest edition of John Long's Anchors book, and I can inform you that it is possible to clip into the equalette with a single locker--twist one strand of the master point to create a sliding X. He describes this in the book as an alternative to the "one locker per strand" method.

I have been climbing for years using the good 'ol cordelette method, but I'm considering adding the equalette to my quiver of tools.


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By Greg D
From Here
Feb 18, 2014
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Cassondra and too tall nailed it. And yes his photo is an equalette. You just can't see the two to four attachment points above.

To clarify, a biner is not a master point. A biner gets clipped to a master point.

Tip. When tying your equalette make one strand between the limiter knots slightly longer. When you put the half twist in that strand both hold the load nicely.

One locker to clove your rope for your anchor. One locker in same point to hang your auto block. It works great. But many people don't understand if.

Ps. Don't be so uptight.

Just realized how old this thread is. Why did you resurrect it?


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By ChaseLeoncini
From San Diego, California
Feb 18, 2014
El Cajon Mtn. Leonids. 5.9.

So that all who try to respond in future to this post...
A masterpoint is not the carabiner in corded anchor. The loop you clip into is.
Secondly, (and i havent read this thread again) an equallette can be clipped into with one locker by simply twisting one of those bottom strands. Ive since used this version. And yes, it does briefly discuss this in John Long's Anchor Book. I overlooked it at the time of this post. (If that's even what i asked about... I dont come here much anymore.... shoulder surgery, :''''((( RIP arm/climbing. FML)


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By Ryan Watts
From Bishop, CA
Feb 18, 2014
Flatirons

Hmmm I am familiar with the cordelette and even used one of those alpine equalizer things once but this is a new one. Two lockers? Sounds like a cluster.

Not trying to be a dick, but why complicate things! Are you belaying off some sketch nest of RPs or something? If the gear in the belay is bomber then...fig 8, clove, clove, off belay right?


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By Greg D
From Here
Feb 18, 2014
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Ryan Watts wrote:
Hmmm I am familiar with the cordelette and even used one of those alpine equalizer things once but this is a new one. Two lockers? Sounds like a cluster. Not trying to be a dick, but why complicate things! Are you belaying off some sketch nest of RPs or something? If the gear in the belay is bomber then...fig 8, clove, clove, off belay right?


You're not being a dick. You just don't understand. One locker to anchor yourself. One locker to belay. Not complicated. Not a cluster.


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