Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Epinephrine Rescue
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 4.  1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Xavier Wasiak
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 6, 2012
Self Portrait
lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2012/07/...

The article says the party "lost the route" on several occasions. Other than maybe on the descent, where do you think people can get off route on Epi?

FLAG
By Princess Mia
From Vail
Jul 6, 2012
Chillin' at City of Rocks
Pretty hard to get lost in the chimney pitches.... And above the tower I thought the route was pretty obvious. Maybe during the traverse at the top??? Naw that doesn't make sense either. Maybe at the bottom before the chimney???? Naw not there. If you find out do post.

FLAG
By agd
Jul 6, 2012
alaska
Man, that's got to be embarassing to have your ass hauled up the top uninjured. Glad to hear they are safe.

Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs? Do people generally receive a bill in the mail for the rescue services, or does the rescue group just assume it can't be paid?

FLAG
By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 7, 2012
a fair number of people lose the route when they leave the top of the tower, actually. If they had headed up the Original Velvet Route, then thought they were supposed to go straight up rather than up and right, that would get them to roughly 400' below the peak and in deep crap.

glad they were alright, and i'd be curious to hear their side of things!

FLAG
By Jim R
From Vegas!
Jul 7, 2012
alexdavis wrote:
Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs?

No financial liability, no bill...

FLAG
By AWinters
Administrator
From NH
Jul 7, 2012
Red-tail Hawk, Buttermilks
my buddy and i got off route on the pitch off the black tower heading for the elephant's trunk - we were too far left and it really screwed things up. that's the only place I can see losing your way...

FLAG
By Dylan Hettinger
From Boulder, CO
Jul 7, 2012
ouray, I think
alexdavis wrote:
Man, that's got to be embarassing to have your ass hauled up the top uninjured. Glad to hear they are safe. Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs? Do people generally receive a bill in the mail for the rescue services, or does the rescue group just assume it can't be paid?


It varies by state, but generally outside cases of extreme or criminal negligence, the SAR group assumes financial responsibility. In Colorado, if the rescued individual has a COSAR card, the SAR is eligible for reimbursement from what I've always assumed was a state fund.

FLAG
By Xavier Wasiak
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 7, 2012
Self Portrait
My brother and his son got stuck off-roading in the desert once and got a free helicopter ride to safety by SAR. Pretty cool.

FLAG
 
By Rob Fielding
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 7, 2012
Third pillar of dana descent.
Sounds like negligence to me... The party wasn't even injured. If you can make it up to your high point, you can get get back down. Yes, you probably would have to leave some gear, but it's better than putting the SAR team in danger. Although i'm sure they had a lot of fun.

I obviously don't know all of the relevant information of what the climbers were going through, but if they were just dehydrated then what a bunch of school boy bitches!

FLAG
By NickinCO
From colorado
Jul 7, 2012
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.
Rob Fielding wrote:
Sounds like negligence to me... The party wasn't even injured. If you can make it up to your high point, you can get get back down. Yes, you probably would have to leave some gear, but it's better than putting the SAR team in danger. Although i'm sure they had a lot of fun. I obviously don't know all of the relevant information of what the climbers were going through, but if they were just dehydrated then what a bunch of school boy bitches!

They WERE from Ohio...

FLAG
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Jul 9, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
Nick Mardi wrote:
They WERE from Ohio...


Maybe they thought RR was the same as RRG. Getting on a Grade IV with no self-rescue skills does not sound like a good idea. I agree about bailing. Couldn't they have just built an anchor on that ledge they were rescued from? How did the leader bring the 2nd up if there were no anchor possibilities? Calling SAR to save yourself a few pieces of pro is pretty bad ethics. I like the idea of them getting billed in this instance, because they weren't competent enough to be on this serious of a route.

FLAG
By Greg D
From Here
Jul 9, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W.
I do very much appreciate SAR Teams and all the hard work they do.

What I believe is unfortunate in this situation is how fast they responded to what I would call "non urgent". The climbers may have been tired, cold and thirsty. But, tough shit. Do some spooning and wait for daylight. Then, get yourself out of the mess you got yourself into.

Knowing that SAR will bail you out after being lost for a few hours will only attract more of this behavior, imo.

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jul 9, 2012
El Chorro
Greg D wrote:
I do very much appreciate SAR Teams and all the hard work they do. What I believe is unfortunate in this situation is how fast they responded to what I would call "non urgent". The climbers may have been tired, cold and thirsty. But, tough shit. Do some spooning and wait for daylight. Then, get yourself out of the mess you got yourself into. Knowing that SAR will bail you out after being lost for a few hours will only attract more of this behavior, imo.


+1.

And as far as who pays the bill, it varies from state to state and also depends on who is performing the rescue. The Coast Guard and the NPS obviously don't charge anyone anything. If I recall correctly, the total cost for NPS SAR each year works out to a few pennies per visitor.

I remember when I lived in CO they had signs at all the exit gates at ski resorts saying that rescue would be slow and COSTLY! I don't know exactly what those signs meant, but the above comment about COSAR membership is correct. Pay a few bucks a year and you are guaranteed that you will not be billed if you need rescue.

A few of the states in the northeast have laws allowing them to bill you, but I don't think they always do. I personally know one person who has been billed and did pay for his rescue in New Hampshire.

FLAG
By Canon
Jul 9, 2012
Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance. They are more like a donation to the state SAR fund. They do not absolve holders of legal or financial liability. If you really want to CYA, be a member of the American alpine club or carry rescue insurance like what its available through SPOT and similar groups. Oh, and most importantly, have AAA!

FLAG
By Dylan Hettinger
From Boulder, CO
Jul 9, 2012
ouray, I think
Gannon wrote:
Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance... most importantly, have AAA!


Right, COSAR doesn't have anything to do with your liability, just enables reimbursement for the SAR team from a state-wide fund.

See:
alpinerescueteam.org/index.php...

Of note, re CO rescue, from the link:

"there is no bill for search and rescue team's services in Colorado."

EDIT: mp's link thing doesn't work... but you can Google just as well as I can.

FLAG
By Todd99
Jul 9, 2012
I'm from Florida, my buddy and I got stuck overnight on this route. BUT we didn't need a rescue. We were on this in mid march a few years ago. It got cold enough that I would wake-up from my teeth chattering too much. We got off route too but we weren't injured. Like it was suggested by others we sucked it up and got ourselves out of the mess we got into. We realized where we went wrong and I still want to go back and climb it the right way (not spending the night).

FLAG
 
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jul 9, 2012
El Chorro
Gannon wrote:
Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance. They are more like a donation to the state SAR fund. They do not absolve holders of legal or financial liability. If you really want to CYA, be a member of the American alpine club or carry rescue insurance like what its available through SPOT and similar groups. Oh, and most importantly, have AAA!


I didn't mean to imply that CORSAR was insurance. I understood that it was just a recognition that you plan to be doing activities that could create the need for rescue and that you were donating to the funding for that. But yes, AAC is a great start to some help in paying bills. It is also a great way to support climbing as a whole. Everyone should be a member. I am, and I don't even live in the US! (PS, also a member of the Carolina Climbers Coalition, and the BMC).

FLAG
By Buff Johnson
Jul 9, 2012
smiley face
Notwithstanding the whole corsar stuff which is just a Colorado thing, the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered.

Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered. It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered.

FLAG
By Dirty Gri Gri, or is it GiGi?
From Vegas
Jul 9, 2012
Growing a winter coat in Red Rock Canyon- December...
Hmm, I wish we could hear their full side of the story. Seems silly to endanger the lives of rescuers because you're a bit dehydrated, and scared. Were they at least treated for heat stroke, or something a little serious? I suppose it can be dangerous to hang in your harness for too long, but it was reported that they found a ledge. The temps at night are wonderful in BVC this time of year. Oh well, glad they're okay, and no one got hurt with the rescue. Personally, I'm pretty sure I'd have to be near death to call for a rescue, unless I have a child with me, or I'm super duper lost in a remote area, although my cell phone probably wouldn't work in those places anyway. My BF does has a HAM radio, as we do a lot of remote 4WD stuff, but we'd have to be pretty bad off to call rescue, and have at least tried, and exhausted all of our options ourselves first. Be prepared, and safe everyone!

Just my worthless 4G.

FLAG
By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Jul 9, 2012
Buff Johnson wrote:
Notwithstanding the whole corsar stuff which is just a Colorado thing, the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered. Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered. It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered.

For the win!

FLAG
By Steve Blevins
From Central Coast, CA
Jul 11, 2012
"the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered. Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered."

That's true from the view point of SAR. It does not take into account if requesters of aid valued the lives of the rescuers against their inconvenience or life threatening situation, as GiGi points out. Many here have pointed out, including GiGi, they are not in a rush to judgment but would like to know the whole story.

"It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered."

And here you are so wrong. Wait until you have your climb in the canyon stopped because someone got their rope stuck, the helicopter comes in 4 times and the requesters walked out. Do you think you would be concerned if a helicopter rescue went bad while you were on the wall and you were injured or your partner killed from debris? Or perhaps you had a life threatening situation, but the helo was tied up on a non injury rescue, and your buddy dies because SAR can't get to him soon enough or at all? So it is the legitimate concern of any who climb the walls.

I have spent a night out on Epinephrine. And a night out on Sacagawea, in the Wind River range, with an injured climber I thought was going to die. I have a little more than just a virtual acquaintance with potential rescue situations.

And kBobby, "For the win!". Really.

The suggestion for charging for deemed frivolous rescues is a simplistic overreaction, that would cause no end of grief for the entire climbing community. Fortunately, it is extremely unlikely unless a enough climbers call for rescue to require more equipment and manpower.

Calling into question the validity of a non injury request is not the same as questioning whether a rescue should be made. Equating the two is dangerous logic that can lead to poor decision making, thinking that 'a rescue is no big deal', and 'calling for a rescue is nobody's business but mine'

FLAG
By Glenn Schuler
From Monument, Co.
Jul 11, 2012
A grey fox skull wedged in a crack 100' up on a FA...
Steve Blevins wrote:
Do you think you would be concerned if a helicopter rescue went bad while you were on the wall and you were injured or your partner killed from debris?


You're really reaching for shit on that one - someone's been watching Cliffhanger a few too many times apparently.

FLAG
By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Jul 11, 2012
I stand by what I said.

Buff has considerable experience in this area. I agree with his opinion here. Strongly.

Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse.

If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals. Rescues where the victim is able to assist the rescue team are easier and safer for the rescuers involved. Most SAR professionals will tell you that not much in their job is worse than body removal. Suggesting that people shouldn't call for aid until they are seriously injured is ridiculous. People should request aid as soon as they require aid. Waiting until you are in a life-threatening situation would be completely insane.

(As an aside, I was involved in a rescue in RRNCA a few months back. The victim suffered a head trama. The cause of the accident was inexperience. My friends and I were on the same wall when the accident happened. Had the victim and her partner asked for assistance before the serious injury, we could have saved her much pain and ourselves the effort of carrying her out.)

SAR in Red Rock Canyon is performed by a department within the Sheriff's office. To those of you advocating charging for response, I wonder if you would also be in favor of charging people who call the police for other reasons, including those who believe they are or will be victims of a crime? Do you really want to go back to the days of fire departments charging "customers" before putting out house fires? I don't. Instead, I am happy to pay taxes to have those services available for everyone in case of need.

Crazy Ayn Rand has convinced everyone that paying taxes is morally and ethically repugnant. It isn't. It is part of living in a civilized society. It allows us to have police departments, SAR, fire departments, a military, national parks, national forest, national monuments, state universities, scientific research, and a whole host of other things that knuckle-draggers find unnecessary.

I'm done ranting.

FLAG
By Rob Fielding
From Las Vegas, NV
Jul 13, 2012
Third pillar of dana descent.

Kbobby: Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse. If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals.

You have obviously never worked for the government or have been associated with a job that has, otherwise you would see it from a different perspective. Negligence, incompetence, and "the unedumacated" is where most of your "tax payer" money goes to. At least from a medical perspective. What you're saying is exactly the problem that fuels the people. Where do you draw the line? If you don't have a medical/trauma life threatening emergency, SAR should not be called and here is why. Every single time that helicopter responds into a canyon it puts all of the SAR members at life threatening risk with the possibility of death. If the people being rescued are not in "life threatening" danger, then it does not equal out in the equation. Criteria should be met, but there is liability concerned with that matter. Where do you draw the line? Any free service is always taken advantage of. If a person initiates SAR response and is a situation they could have manage on there own, then all means they should be charged. If it was a unnavoidable emergency, then that is a different story.

The only benefit I see is training for the SAR team, but every time they go out there is risk involved. Most of the SAR Vegas team is compiled of Volunteers, not paid police officers. SAR Vegas has 8-10 employed officers and only 2-3 work in a given shift, the rest is volunteer buddy. The volunteer staff is the majority responding to the call.


FLAG
 
By Eric-D
From Las Vegas, nv
Jul 13, 2012
Both the paid officers and the volunteers in Clark County are some of the best in the country. They are held to the highest standards for both technical skills and physical fitness.

When a call comes in for aid they respond. Period. Without hesitation or judgment. It's easy to pass judgment on a forum about the worthiness of a particular rescue after the fact. But a rescue team does not have that luxury.

FLAG
By Dow Williams
From Saint George, UT
Jul 13, 2012
Dow Williams, 2011
Rob is spot on. Rescues should be a liability of the individual(s) needing rescue, managed no different than how Clark County collects on a speeding ticket, through the courts via a fine. Anyone who could get lost on a route like Epi should not be climbing it to begin with in my opinion, but thats impossible to police nor do I believe government has the competence to do so. Darwin's Law is the best selection management tool for such activities.

This stance is about less government intervention in your lives. More of a libertarian twist. Live and let live until you affect me or in this case the community in which you live or visit in terms of their tax dollars. Dialing 911 should have consequences, it should be the last resort....or, you can dial 911 if somebody did not make your sandwiches the way you liked them...true story about a month ago. Zero consequences.

In Canada National parks, they charge you extra fees on your park pass to cover their annual budgeted expense of rescues, why their national park pass is almost twice ours. I am cool with that if that is how big brother wants to do it. Red Rock NCA is not collecting fees at the gate to cover it.

Some offer weird responses to such debates, i.e. how great a particular SAR team might or might not be. That has nothing to do with it. Same weird responses some Americans exhibit about war debates..."but the troops are such great folks risking it all!"...might be true, but that point has nothing to do with the validity of the war they might be risking it all for.

Rob Fielding wrote:
Kbobby: Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse. If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals. You have obviously never worked for the government or have been associated with a job that has, otherwise you would see it from a different perspective. Negligence, incompetence, and "the unedumacated" is where most of your "tax payer" money goes to. At least from a medical perspective. What you're saying is exactly the problem that fuels the people. Where do you draw the line? If you don't have a medical/trauma life threatening emergency, SAR should not be called and here is why. Every single time that helicopter responds into a canyon it puts all of the SAR members at life threatening risk with the possibility of death. If the people being rescued are not in "life threatening" danger, then it does not equal out in the equation. Criteria should be met, but there is liability concerned with that matter. Where do you draw the line? Any free service is always taken advantage of. If a person initiates SAR response and is a situation they could have manage on there own, then all means they should be charged. If it was a unnavoidable emergency, then that is a different story. The only benefit I see is training for the SAR team, but every time they go out there is risk involved. Most of the SAR Vegas team is compiled of Volunteers, not paid police officers. SAR Vegas has 8-10 employed officers and only 2-3 work in a given shift, the rest is volunteer buddy. The volunteer staff is the majority responding to the call.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 4.  1  2  3  4   Next>   Last>>