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Eldo sucks AKA the crag blasphemer's thread
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By jarthur
From Westminster, CO
Oct 31, 2012
My dogs got ups yo!

Red Rocks sucks. Everytime I go there I turn 180 degrees and wonder why I'm climbing a 25-ft sport line at the Gallery when there are 2,000-ft sport & trad lines just a few miles away.


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By mozeman
Oct 31, 2012

Jon Moen wrote:
It should be noted that Ed didn't claim that Devil's Lake is world class; his claim was about the rock quality. He claim that it is the climbing area with the best rock, not that it is the best rock climbing area. This is a really important distinction. Rock quality is just one factor in climbing quality, and it usually is not the most imporant factor in assessing the quality of an area. For me, it is probably 5th or 6th on the list, provided some minimum level of adequate rock quality. I'll take steep, physical, interesting movement on choss (Rifle, Maple, etc) any day over slabby, less interesting (to me) movement on the best rock around (Idyllwild slab climbig, etc). So, depending on your criteria, Devil's Lake may have the best rock quality around, but that doesn't make it w aworld class climbing area.



True Ed did at first the rock is some of the best in the world, but after I said "someone actually called devils lake WORLD CLASS" (or something along those lines) Ed replies with "I said that and I stand by my belief..."


so in turn, yes Ed did say that devils tower in total is a world class destination, albeit in a somewhat roundabout way. Regardless of semantics, everything I said in my regarding devils lake is essentially the same as in your post, although i still would not consider 99% of the STONE at devils lake world class.


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By mozeman
Oct 31, 2012

it should alao be mentioned that the picture of the Devils lake route did look like loads of fun


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By Loyd Wofford III
Oct 31, 2012
DEVILS TOWER

This forum is great and the answer is easy. Brian S. hit it on the head if you would travel half way around the world to go climb somewhere where legends have put up spectacular routes in beutiful settings then and only then is it world class. Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo. Forget rock quality or safety and focus on the basics, everyone here knows what the difference between a place like Devils Tower and some local crag. Every local at there own crag holds a special place in their heart for that crag but that still doesnt make it world class. Each climb is special for each person that climbs but time, legends, and popular concensus make world class destinations what they are. I think that is what is trying to be said here not to take anyting away from Eldo. Sorry but I have to agree with the name of this thread when I say Eldo is not world class.


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By Wyowhitewater
From Golden
Oct 31, 2012

Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo.

I don't know what you consider a legend but let me name a few.

Pat Ament
Royal Robbins
Layton Kor
Chuck Pratt
Larry Dalke
Roger Briggs
Jim Erickson
Bob Culp
Lynn Hill

and most recently

Matt Segal
David Woods

Just to name a few people that put up a small handful of routes in Eldo. Maybe these aren't legends to you but in my book they are all on very high pedestals


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 31, 2012
Bocan

Loyd Wofford III wrote:
Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo. Forget rock or safety and focus on the basics, everyone here knows what the difference between a place like Devils Tower and some local crag. Every local at there own crag holds a special place in their heart for that crag but that still doesnt make it world class. Each climb is special for each person that climbs but time, legends, and popular concensus make world class destinations what they are. I think that is what is trying to be said here not to take anyting away from Eldo. Sorry but I have to agree with the name of this thread when I say Eldo is not world class.


Well...I guess that depends on who you consider to be a legend. If Chris Sharma is to you, then no. If you're like me where Layton Kor, Derek Hersey, Ament, Robbins, Briggs, Wunsch, Breashears, Bachar, the Lowe Brothers just to name a few are legends, then a resounding YES.

I don't climb there often, but I always found the fact that you can have a totally wild experience multiple pitches off the ground 5 minutes outside of town to be quite alluring.

However these statements don't really follow the point of the thread. :o)


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 31, 2012
Bocan

J Johns wrote:
Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo. I don't know what you consider a legend but let me name a few. Pat Ament Royal Robbins Layton Kor Chuck Pratt Larry Dalke Roger Briggs Jim Erickson Bob Culp Lynn Hill and most recently Matt Segal David Woods Just to name a few people that put up a small handful of routes in Eldo. Maybe these aren't legends to you but in my book they are all on very high pedestals


haha we were typing that same thought simultaneously. I really felt compelled since "no legends putting up classic lines" was a very very untrue statement.


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By Ben Walburn
Oct 31, 2012
"This definitely beats lying in a pile of saw dust all day"

I love it!! keep spreading the word... Eldo Sucks, don't go there.


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By Loyd Wofford III
Oct 31, 2012
DEVILS TOWER

J Johns wrote:
Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo. I don't know what you consider a legend but let me name a few. Pat Ament Royal Robbins Layton Kor Chuck Pratt Larry Dalke Roger Briggs Jim Erickson Bob Culp Lynn Hill and most recently Matt Segal David Woods Just to name a few people that put up a small handful of routes in Eldo. Maybe these aren't legends to you but in my book they are all on very high pedestals



Did not say anything about good climbers climbing at your local crag but maybe you should call them up and ask their opinion on Eldo in the context of this tread as far as Eldo being up there on a pedestal with real world class climbing, because im sure those people have put up routes all over the world and not every place they touched made it a instant classic, sorry I wasnt clear for your narrow thinking when I made the comment about legends but just cause you can nit pick something out of context shows your intellegence. I never said anything about legends never setting foot there or putting up a route bet that they are probaly not going to say Eldo is world class wise ass!


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By Ed Wright
Oct 31, 2012
Magic Ed

mozeman wrote:
I have not for good, reason, that reason being it is NOT world class. For a climbing crag to be considered World class , in many people's eyes it has to first be considered a destination. I honestly do not think very many climbers plan a trip AROUND or TO devils lake. the climbing may be phenomenal but it is not world class I can guarantee you that. Sure they may be a few climbs that would be 5-star at any crag but that still doesn't make it world class. People from the midwest travel there sure, but that is because it is the closest crag to them. There is a reason the best climbers in the world flock to other areas such as Spain, France, the valley, RRG, etc. And no it is not just because these places also offer hard climbs. I'm sure that you love devils lake and the climbing is fabulous, but to say a place like that is world class is just silly. The location and short climbing season alone eliminate it as an ideal climbing destination in America alone, let alone the WORLD. world class: no; mid-west class(?): yes But enough about crappy midwest climbing, we are talking about how much eldo blows!!!!!!


I never said it was a world class climbing area. What I said was it's the best rock in the world and I still believe that.


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By mozeman
Oct 31, 2012

Ed Wright wrote:
I never said it was a world class climbing area. What I said was it's the best rock in the world and I still believe that.

k


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By mozeman
Oct 31, 2012

J Johns wrote:
Never climbed at Eldo but you just dont see legends, or many people at all, talking about the ultra classic line they put up in Eldo. I don't know what you consider a legend but let me name a few. Pat Ament Royal Robbins Layton Kor Chuck Pratt Larry Dalke Roger Briggs Jim Erickson Bob Culp Lynn Hill and most recently Matt Segal David Woods Just to name a few people that put up a small handful of routes in Eldo. Maybe these aren't legends to you but in my book they are all on very high pedestals



in the suckiness of Eldo's defense, many of those names are older names who climbed there before other major destinations REALLY blew up, such as Ten sleep, the RRG, or NRG (who's main development was in the late 80's-90's anf later even I believe).

Climbing was much less popular in those days so there were far less places to climb in comparison to now. Besides I dont think there is much argument that the hard climbs at eldo are not crappy, its the other vast majoirty of climbs and other variables of the modern day that people do not like (just think about how many idiots and pretentious a-holes those legends encountered back in their climbing day)



BTW david woods? this the mutant offspring of dave graham and daniel woods or....


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By Loyd Wofford III
Oct 31, 2012
DEVILS TOWER

mozeman wrote:
in the suckiness of Eldo's defense, many of those names are older names who climbed there before other major destinations REALLY blew up, such as Ten sleep, the RRG, or NRG (who's main development was in the late 80's-90's anf later even I believe). Climbing was much less popular in those days so there were far less places to climb in comparison to now. Besides I dont think there is much argument that the hard climbs at eldo are crappy its the other vast majoirty of climbs and other variables of the modern day that people do not like (just think about how many idiots and pretentious a-holes those legends encountered back in their climbing day)


Wow an intellegent post that doesnt take things out of context to make them self look really smart. Thanks for being a level head on this subject. Once again never been to Eldo but if you just judge from this thread it sounds like a good place to stay away from,


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By RockyMtnTed
Oct 31, 2012

Ed Wright wrote:
I never said it was a world class climbing area. What I said was it's the best rock in the world and I still believe that.


What makes it the best? Honestly wondering here... Everything I have heard is that its slipper as shit, thats usually not something I look for in a rock climb. Also the quality might be good but part of the quality I think is the length, and 30 ft just isnt cutting it.


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By Wyowhitewater
From Golden
Nov 1, 2012

Loyd Wofford III wrote:
Did not say anything about good climbers climbing at your local crag but maybe you should call them up and ask their opinion on Eldo in the context of this tread as far as Eldo being up there on a pedestal with real world class climbing, because im sure those people have put up routes all over the world and not every place they touched made it a instant classic, sorry I wasnt clear for your narrow thinking when I made the comment about legends but just cause you can nit pick something out of context shows your intellegence. I never said anything about legends never setting foot there or putting up a route bet that they are probaly not going to say Eldo is world class wise ass!


Now you start by just calling them good climbers man your going down hill fast. For the record, not to get your panties in more of a bunch then they already are, I have been on the other end of the rope with four of those climbers in Eldo and at other World Class areas and the battle cry was always "back home again in Eldo". I really don't care if people think Eldo sucks, frees up the wall for me. The real issue here.... Warning: continued panty bunching!!!... is that climbers now adays are more worried about a number than the climb. "Dude Bro that was such a rad 5.11d I just put up" That being said the attitude these days is if I can't do it, there must be something wrong with the rock or the conditions. No one ever says maybe I just need to expand my skill set and come back when I can climb it. The part that is sad to me is the fact people are listing some 60ft row of cliffs with bolts on it as classic or world class. To me a place is world class when you climb it and everyone knows how amazing it is even none climbers. Just the mention of the Grand Teton, El Cap, Castleton Tower, Mount Whitney, and yes Eldorado Caynon State Park puts you in with the legends. Most of the Eldo routes were put up when the rating system didn't go past 5.9 so if it was hard it was 5.9. Most climbers today can't, or don't want to deal with that, so they blame the route or just plain say it sucks. Then they go somewhere they can climb every 5.11 and call it world class. I'm sorry but you go and climb your 5.11's on gear with shoes from the 50's on hemp ropes then come back and tell me if they feel like classics.


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By Wyowhitewater
From Golden
Nov 1, 2012

in the suckiness of Eldo's defense, many of those names are older names who climbed there before other major destinations REALLY blew up, such as Ten sleep, the RRG, or NRG (who's main development was in the late 80's-90's anf later even I believe).

I'm done after this, this quote proves just what I said, I'm sorry but you can't list sport areas that have very little in the way of classic multi pitch CLIMBS at them next to Eldorado Canyon, and the Tetons. The fact that they are old names is what makes them legends and the areas they climbed in Classic and world class.


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By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Nov 1, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life

J Johns wrote:
I'm sorry but you can't list sport areas that have very little in the way of classic multi pitch CLIMBS at them next to Eldorado Canyon, and the Tetons. The fact that they are old names is what makes them legends and the areas they climbed in Classic and world class.


You're conflating "world class" and "multipitch trad". The existence of multipitch trad routes is neither necessary nor sufficient to deem an area "world class." Nor is an area's designation as a "sport" crag reason enough to discount it. Smith Rock? Anywhere in Spain? Rifle? Take your "badass traddie" pants off for a second.


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By Joe Huggins
From Grand Junction
Nov 1, 2012
mmmm....tree

Loyd Wofford III wrote:
This forum is great and the answer is easy. Brian S. hit it on the head if you would travel half way around the world to go climb somewhere where legends have put up spectacular routes in beutiful settings then and only then is it world class. Sorry but I have to agree with the name of this thread when I say Eldo is not world class.

yada yada ad nauseum.
Perhaps, you should consider the question of whether, or not, you are an idiot.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Nov 1, 2012
El Chorro

Phil Persson wrote:
Northern Norway... terrible weather, hard to get to, epic amounts of choss, moss, and bird poo.... BUT, when it's good, it's unbelievably good (see: South Pillar on Stetind (14 pitches of Yosemite-quality granite to a Bugaboos-esque summit over the sea... or 'Vestpillaren', 1500 feet of splitter cracks/corners on an island that looks like something out of a storybook). You might see another party or two if it's a sunny day and you're on a super classic route, but more likely it will just be you and the rock and the fjord across the valley with 1000+ meter walls waiting for first ascents.


Going there next summer. INSTEAD OF Yosemite! Psyched!

World class means very different things depending on where you live and what you do. For the average American that has enough holiday to take one two week trip per year, consistent weather and easy access are important. For the rest of the developed world where people can take 6 to 8 weeks a year away from their jobs, weather and access become less of an issue.

And for the guy asking what the French think about climbing in NA - I just spent 10 days there. They all think the climbing must be great in the US. But when I ask why they haven't visited, they always answer "Well, of course, because I live in France."


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Nov 1, 2012
El Chorro

jarthur wrote:
Red Rocks sucks. Everytime I go there I turn 180 degrees and wonder why I'm climbing a 25-ft sport line at the Gallery when there are 2,000-ft sport & trad lines just a few miles away.


That's not Red Rocks' fault!


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Ed Wright wrote:
I never said it was a world class climbing area. What I said was it's the best rock in the world and I still believe that.

If you like it slippery but absolutely unbreakable, that is true!

Austin Baird wrote:
Take your "badass traddie" pants off for a second.

I can do that... But if I do, all the sport climbers around here are going to spend the rest of their lives feeling like half a man.


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By rging
From Salt Lake City, Ut
Nov 1, 2012
CoR

Ed Wright wrote:
I never said it was a world class climbing area. What I said was it's the best rock in the world and I still believe that.


Best rock in the world and quartzite do not belong in the same sentence. We really can't trust your judgment any more.


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By Austin Baird
From SLC, Utah
Nov 1, 2012
Me scaring years off my mom's life

Tony - we're both talking about these pants...right?

mountainproject.com/v/106051686


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Nov 1, 2012
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Austin Baird wrote:
Tony - we're both talking about these pants...right? mountainproject.com/v/106051686


No, These:
Spandex and Traddie Day - Tony's hardware exhibit
Spandex and Traddie Day - Tony's hardware exhibit


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By SlowTrad
From St Paul, MN
Nov 1, 2012

All you whiners talking about how Eldo sucks, BoCan sucks etc. should try living in Minnesota.

There are a few good individual climbs that have maybe a few cool moves, but they entail a 240 mile drive from the TC and they aren't concentrated in one area, so you are lucky to do 5 pitches in a day, mostly due to crowding on the classics.
(talking about the North Shore and Devil's Lake WI)

Otherwise we have to drive to the Needles in SD or the Tower in WY to get any multi-pitch climbing in.

Boulder is the most convenient place to climb...short approaches, plenty of hotels, nice restaurants, lots of stuff to do when raining/snowing. Fly into Denver, rent a car and you are climbing in an hour or so.


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