Eldo Accident

denverpost.com/breakingnews…

Any word on what they were climbing?

How it happened?

Thanks for the link, Mike.

--Marc

Hi...I'm sure others will provide additional details but my partner and I were on Vertigo right beside them when it happened. They were on Doub-Griffth. Apparently the leader pulled off a pretty big rock, which landed on his belayer. I think the leader was also injured when the rock hit him on the way by and he fell. There were broken bones involved for sure. I tried to set up a way to retrieve his gear from Vertigo (he had several pieces in the crack), but it was too risky as the ledge the injured climber and rescue folks were all on was directly in the fall line. I'm sure he'd be appreciative if that gear found its way back home. That's all I know at this point, but I would be interested in a medical update once someone in the know checks in.

David

We were right above them on Yellow Spur when it happened. We did the west side raps down out of the top notch and came down the trail next to the 20-30 very unnecessary RMR folks at the base of the climb. The belayer was down at that point and as we decended the trail another 60 yards, to the point they had a woman parked to insure no would come up the ravine, I heard on the woman's radio a call for blood as I swung past her, so I'm guessing it's likely either the leader or belayer's injuries were serious. At that point the leader was in a stretcher about to be lowered so I'm guessing it was the leader who needed the blood - but I think both might have been pretty seriously injured.This is the second time I've been back to Eldo since '76 and it was interesting to see RMR modus operendi hadn't changed much in 32 years. About four times more people were involved than should have been and half the RMR folks look as sketch as they ever did in '74. Unbelievable really - wtf - it's a rescue, not a party, social event, or an excuse to mobilize an army. Some things never change I guess.

John, it's sometimes a difficult call to trundle something that large in a busy climbing area, it's nice you added the comment to mp

I hope everyone involved is ok

edit: According to evening news apparently leader dislodged rock and fell, belayer dodged and missed the rock but didn't miss his partner falling on top of him

Healyje wrote:...next to the 20-30 very unnecessary RMR folks at the base of the climb...

My partner and I came down the trail from the Middle Buttress around 3 pm and, due to the large number of RMR people watching the rescue, we thought it was just a training exercise. We asked the first RMR guy we encountered on the trail about it and he said that they had just finished a training exercise, but that what was happening at that moment was a real rescue. So perhaps that's why there were so many of them out there? But I really don't know how many normally respond or are needed for a rescue - first time I've seen one. Best wishes to those guys for a speedy recovery.

Damn VOLUNTEER rescue crews.
How dare they give up their time to assist someone who injured themself. They even do it for free!! What pricks.
AND they bring a lot of help!
The nerve.

josh

J. Thompson wrote:Damn VOLUNTEER rescue crews. How dare they give up their time to assist someone who injured themself. They even do it for free!! What pricks. AND they bring a lot of help! The nerve. josh

It's not about that in any way, whether we're talking either '78 or '08 - there were 20+ RMR people at the base of the rescue alone, all within rock fall shot, and half of them looked like they had no business in Eldo at all. In general, eight competent people and a single emergency vehicle (two at most) would have been completely adequate to the task. As it was, it was a complete pandemonium circus involving multiple public and private agencies and many folks who had no business at all on the scene. On the trail detouring by the main clot of them, several were simply sitting with their backs to the rescue talking to friends on their cells oblivious to what was going on. Again, it gave the appearance that nothing had changed from '74 except possibly that RMR rescues have now morfed into even more of an unnecessary spectacle than decades ago.

Healyje wrote: half of them looked like they had no business in Eldo at all.

Except to perform a rescue.

With so much insightful criticism, perhaps you should volunteer to be a mountain rescuer yourself and correct the situation instead of criticizing something you know nothing about?

Just a friendly suggestion.

-Mark

Actually, I've done more than a few rescues in thirty four years of climbing, most recently in Red Rock last December. What hasn't changed in those thirty four years is that rescues by the folks who claim to know all about that particular domain continue to display an inordinate inability to focus on the essentials versus the extravaganza. A few competent and dialed people are all that are necessary to execute a rescue. The impedance mismatch between RMR and Yosar for instance, is remarkable, though the venues aren't necessarily comparable. However, the true difference is everyone involved with a YOSAR rescue has the chops and a valid role to be on the scene - versus today when it was a complete circus involving many folks who had no business being there at all. Blunt, unpleasant sounding criticisms I know - but they're also spot on as well. Anyone concluding otherwise on surveying today's scene is in serious [institutional] denial.

I believe Healyje has a valid point about the mass of personnel RMR tends to deploy. An excessive cluster of people is not conducive to a smooth operation. Having witnessed and participated in rescue operations across the U.S.(YOSAR, Tetons, Gunks), I have never seen so many deployed in an emergency as RMR uses.

The first time I saw them in action in Eldo they rigged a rope across the creek instead of carrying the litter over the bridge, adding what seems like an unneeded amount of time to evacuate the victim.

I am not saying their work is unappreciated or that there is a lack of professionalism throughout the cadre. They just look frighteningly inefficient.

healyje -
These posters are pickin' on you. An effective rescue consists of a few experts aligned in their plan to save a life. Volunteers are spectacular extra support , but too many chefs spoil the broth. Sorry for the criticism while you try to describe the facts.

steve

Since I have not participated in formal SAR, I'm not weighing in on whether RMR deploys too many or too few people, but as an objective observation I would guess that the number has to do at least in part with a couple of factors:

- use of the formal Incident Command System (which I think more and more SAR groups use these days). Since ICS is designed to deal with everything up to and including a nuclear attack, it's got a ton of positions all of which have people assigned to them. And of course, once a bureaucracy is in place it tends to get used. My guess is when RMR gets activated, they all get called out and of course each "officer" must have a staff etc. etc.

- Most SAR groups have a requirement that prospective members have to go on certain number of missions before they can be considered for official membership.

Again, I'm not saying this is good or bad just attempting to offer some possible reasonable explanations.

In any case, as has been noted, I hope the climber and his belayer are OK and recovery fully and quickly.

I am a little thrown back by all the critisizim on the response. I have worked for a couple of different National Parks. Sometimes you cannot get enough people. I have never heard of such a thing as too much response. Usually were calling out for more people to respond. Has anyone done a litter carry before? I am not familiar with Eldo and all it's routes, and the access to this particular route, but I can say salude to the people who responded. You can always send people home. I am glad that all those people were concerned about the welfare of two individuals. How can one say that the rescuers had no business at the scene, just by their appearance. Healyje, you must have been on some of those rare rescues were there happened to be enough people. Probally a helicopter to short haul the guy off the wall. I don't want to critisize anyone, but lets give some credit to these people who are out there doing the rescue, maybe there employer, or volunteer organization needs some critisism.

The majority of SAR teams callout members by paging everybody. Sometimes you get nobody, sometimes you get everybody. You generally don't turn away SAR members unless you're dealing with a recovery or IDLH situation, as the next time you callout, that member might be the only one who shows up, and they need training and experience.

It's quite easy to sit at a computer and dispense lofty criticisms, it's harder to make decisions under pressure.

Also healyje, I'd just like to say I think it's hilarious that you called your own comment "spot on" in a post. I'm going to start doing that.

As for RMR- well, you never know what the detail will be until you are there. The call goes out and people respond. Over response is better than under-response. I agree that some people could have gone away from the base, or perhaps gone home.
But to analyze the question differently- how many people does it take to carry a litter? About 6-8? Or is that about 12-16, working in teams to switch out and stay fast/efficient? Agreed on the point that they did not need to loiter at the base below a known area of unstable rock with a crew above, but being there and available is not a bad idea.

I know about the tyroll across the river incident a few years ago, as I was there. I have yet to hear a valid excuse for it. That was nuts. Someone is hurt and you are stopping and taking time to get "thumb's up" pictures of getting the litter across? The bridge is fast, safe, and serviceable. I always wondered if it was perhaps motivated by the TV cameras or by the rescue crew members with cameras, snapping away as the heros pulled the litter over the creek (or stopped doing so), 300 yards from a bridge. Now I hear they've done that again...

A point has been made that perhaps if the tyrol were set up well in advance, tested and servied and etc... that it is POSSIBLE (I don't know) that getting someone up and down the sides of the creek bank is faster (safer?) than going over the trial and through to the bridge.

As for the press... Yesterday Jason and I felt like stopping and giving hell to the news guy standing in back of his broadcast van pissing in the street in plain view of at least us, and to our surprise, a ranger driving by who did nothing about it (maybe he was preoccupied). I wish I'd have got out and started taking pictures of that vulture pissing in the street and screaming "freedom of the press, FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, power to the people!!!!"

At least I haven't seen pictures of the victims yet... this time.

Accident

However we may feel about the RMR operations, I am pretty sure the climbers involved in the accident are very grateful. The rest of the discussion is our internet amusements.

Healyje wrote:Actually, I've done more than a few rescues in thirty four years of climbing, most recently in Red Rock last December.

Healyje,

Which team are you a member of? What are the names of the teams you've trained with?

Challenge remains: If you or anyone else feels they could do it better, you are more than welcome to invest your time and energy into a volunteer mountain rescue team.

Not only would the team benefit from your vast knowledge of rescue techniques, but it remains within the realm of possibility you'll learn something too.

They had the perfect number of people to do a really swanky litter carry. They could have had stationary people at turns and low spots in addition to the actual carriers. Not sure why they didn't just do that. It was not a long way down to the bridge from there by any means.

I hope they recover well. A good reminder that
even in an old established area like Eldo STILL
has plenty of loose rock around ready to take
out the unwary. A football sized rock landed 10
ft away from me at the bottom of the bastille once.
(right below west ridge start.)
That rock was moving at top velocity too, I'm pretty
sure it came from people scrambling off the top.

-Be careful out there, have fun

There will never be a time in history when Eldo doesn't have loose rock. The rotten bands intersect every long route out there. Reading this forum to get the low down on loose holds is about all we can do. Since we can't trundle them when we encounter them, all we can do is note them or mark them with a chalk X.

I had to dodge rock fall pulled off by my partner at Shelf last month over at the Gym area. Had they hit me it would have been deadly, as they weighed easily several hundred pounds total. But I saw them as they came out, judged where to go, and just moved. The stuff hit three feet to my left. That's the second time this year I had to dodge rocks pulled off by the leader. So it's been good practice. Ha.