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CT/NY bolting ethics

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By mobley
From Haven, Ct
Jul 21, 2008

Matt Shove wrote:
Brian in RI- Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it. Matt Mattshove@emsclimb.com


I'll bite, what do you think about this anchor being next to a 2" crack besides the fact that it is a tiny bit off Matt? I say this because a 1/4" is really no big deal if the expansion part of the rest of it actually bit into the rock, of course if it just kept pulling out farther and farther as it was tightened than it sucks. was it loose?


By Brian
From Wakefield, RI
Jul 22, 2008
Photo Op on CCK

Matt Shove wrote:
Brian in RI- Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it. Matt Mattshove@emsclimb.com


Matt,
I don't know who placed the bolts there. There was another top-rope anchor on the right-hand side of the party wall that got chopped. I guess the chopper just missed the one you refer to. One of the bolts, as you mention, is sticking out and the hanger is not flush with the rock. I have tried moving/jiggling/bending it and it seems pretty bomber to me especially in redundancy with the other anchor bolt. I think the bolter just didn't drill deep enough. I unhesitatingly use it.
Brian

By Shylo
From Mystic, CT
Aug 3, 2008
Lost Boulder

The tasteful and intelligent use of bolted fixed anchors preserves cliff top vegetation. That is my firm belief. You think people would be intelligent enough to rationalize that the more time you spend on the rock the less time fragile vegetation is getting killed when you are running back a 100' to set lines, etc.

Education and teaching this viewpoint is important to me. It is part of my job today as a guide. I teach this lesson as much as I can.

If people only looked at areas like the White Mountain National Forest and Acadia National Park where vegetation had to be killed in order for us climbers to learn this lesson.

Our numbers as climbers are growing. It is time for us to make intelligent choices on our land use. Innovation and change are good things when viewed from the appropriate perspective.

So here is the lesson.

There is no such thing as traditional climbing or sport climbing...there is only climbing. We are all the same and we are all doing the same thing. We all impact the environment. I swear that some "traditional" areas impact the environment more than some sport cliffs because they use "natural" anchors such as trees. It is backward thinking.

Stay on the rocks, lead as much as possible.

Photos from Acadia National Park that demonstrate my point.

Cliff top soil is fragile. Don't walk on it whenever possible. A sign at the top of Otter Cliff.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/shyloski/IMG_1008.jpg

If we use trees as climbing anchors it impedes there natural growth and development. In most cases it kills them as seen here and the plants around them. A lesson to be learned by us all. Stay on the trail, don't use trees for anchors whenever possible!!! If you are running back to trees you are eroding the soil. Learn from these photos. Use cams at the edge of the cliff or fixed anchors.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/shyloski/IMG_1006.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/shyloski/IMG_1001.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/shyloski/IMG_1000.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/shyloski/IMG_1009.jpg

That being said, compared to many other user groups at cliffs I have seen climbers have relatively low impacts. All forms of Climbing should be encouraged. It is a great sport. You don't have to make a field to play, cut the grass every other day, spread fertilizer, or install lights, etc.

I am sure a middle ground can be found on this issue.

I just hope climbers remember this one important point:

That important view point being, and READ THIS CLOSELY: that removal of properly placed bolt anchors can be considered, in some places, a act of vandalism that egregiously threatens the lives of people that are participating in a form of relatively low impact outdoor recreation. In most cases bolted fixed anchors can be beneficial to the cliff environment. So be forewarned, you might want to distance your association with those people ASAP.

By jimo
From Branford, CT
Aug 6, 2008
Another glam shot...

Shylo, what does this all mean? Are you targeting the unaware to educate them or are you setting up for something much larger?
As a side note, I was at Cathole the other day, not wanting to lead the choss on this particular day, embarked on setting a TR gear anchor. I realized that the features that I'd used in the past were no longer there, the freeze/thaw must have fractured the rock off. I was forced to use a static line to a (healthy) tree with a poorly placed cam as a backup-
My point here is even if I'd lead the route, there were no anchors for me to use other than trees 30 - 40 ft from the edge of the cliff. What is the harm in installing fixed anchors here?

By Shylo
From Mystic, CT
Aug 6, 2008
Lost Boulder

Jimo,

My intent is to educate and help people rationalize our actions as climbers. I see several people that are saying that the ethic should be to ONLY to use trees and gear if we want to TR in CT and that there should be no bolts. I disagree with this thinking. These people are saying its ok to run back and forth 50' across the fragile biomass of the cliff top to use trees or gear. An intelligent look at cliffs in New England in high usage areas (such as Acadia, the white mtns, or the gunks) shows that this ethic slowly kills the biomass and fragile plants on top of the cliff and eventually kills the trees over time or stunts their natural development. That was my intent.

With a certain convicted bolt chopper on probation until July 2009 because of his actions in a perceived ethical bolt anchor "crisis" I see this time as a opportunity for us as a community of climbers to reevaluate our usage of our cliffs to make intelligent choices for our future development. Our numbers as climbers are growing in this state and it is time for us to make good decision on how we want our cliffs to be used.


I am proposing that fixed anchors should be used and that future guide books in CT should specifically describe (where and size of) removal gear (cams, nuts) anchors that are within 6' of the cliff edge in their description. I believe leading should be promoted because it confines our usage to the base of the cliff and channels our wear to the rock face and to a body length of the cliff edge and cliff base. This would significantly reduce our damage to vegetation and trees.

I believe that the RMF and a new organization, C3 (The Connecticut Climbers Coalition) which is modeled after the WMCC, is going to discuss this issue in a town meeting forum this Fall. I will keep you posted on the location and date of this discussion.

By mobley
From Haven, Ct
Sep 13, 2008

Matt Shove wrote:
Brian in RI- Since you are a Ross Pond guy, do you know about the 2 bolt anchor at the party wall? The one next to the 2 inch crack? The right hand bolt is very poorly placed, sticking out more than a quarter inch. The left one is fine, but that other one should get fixed if that anchor is gonna stay. Email me so I can discuss it, I guessed you might know something about it, or maybe who placed it. Matt Mattshove@emsclimb.com


I heard through the grapevine that those bolts were chopped since this post.

By Matt Shove
From Manchester, CT
Sep 14, 2008

Maybe the rumor mill is alive and well, and then again, maybe it's getting blown out of proportion, again.

These are the facts:

I removed the poorly placed hardware store bolt (only one) with the intention of replacing it at the same time. I broke my drill bit right after I began drilling for the new SS triplex bolt, to accompany the one that was left. I have held all the good intentions required of getting back over to Ross Pond and replacing it, but I haven't made it in the last 2 weeks. I patched and camo'ed 3 drilled holes (a mess likely from the original bolter) as a community service. Sorry, but as a community, we should not stand for poorly placed bolt anchors. I did inform 2 local climbers in that RI/eastern CT circle of what I did, and what my intentions were. I asked them to pass it on to who they deemed necessary.

If the rest of that anchor was removed, then it's occurred since the last time I was there (about 2 weeks). I haven't heard about it being removed.

If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.

By Healyje
Sep 15, 2008
girl40

Shylo wrote:
With a certain convicted bolt chopper on probation until July 2009 because of his actions in a perceived ethical bolt anchor "crisis" I see this time as a opportunity for us as a community of climbers to reevaluate our usage of our cliffs to make intelligent choices for our future development. Our numbers as climbers are growing in this state and it is time for us to make good decision on how we want our cliffs to be used.


Don't get too carried away with yourselves...

Shylo wrote:
I believe leading should be promoted because it confines our usage to the base of the cliff and channels our wear to the rock face and to a body length of the cliff edge and cliff base.


Or, in other words - we want to [finally] drill the shit out of CT to sport climb and will fly any flag of convenience in order to make it happen. Jesus H. Christ, the saddest aspect of ongoing whinefest is simply the unwillingness of folks like yourself to speak frankly about your true intent, own it, and at least be upfront about the reality which would quickly follow your getting your way.

By Brian
From Wakefield, RI
Sep 15, 2008
Photo Op on CCK

Matt Shove wrote:
Maybe the rumor mill is alive and well, and then again, maybe it's getting blown out of proportion, again. ...


Matt contacted me and another Ross Pond regular to let us know that he was replacing the bolt on the anchor as he stated. He was concerned that people may start pointing fingers and passing rumors of bolt chopping. But as we all know, that would never occur on a climbing forum.

Brian

By jimo
From Branford, CT
Sep 19, 2008
Another glam shot...

Matt Shove wrote:
. If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.

Matt, I don't think that Mobes is implicating anything, not quite his style- he'd come out and say that if that is what he meant. As for this being the last post concerning this topic, that is somewhat counterproductive as you are an active member of our climbing community. Even though there is a great deal of spraying on these forums, it is still the only cohesive means to discuss ethics and traditions instilled on our scene within the past 20 years. We have an opprotunity to come to common ground using this means of communication, I do not believe this is a precursor to another bolt war, but a means to avoid one.
Has anyone contacted the asca for input? At the Valley last week, I encountered several individuals that were replacing bolts much in the same manner that Matt was but under the asca badge, I believe they supply the hardwear, you supply the elbow grease.
Again I'll reiterate my dreams of this movement- safe anchors at our CT crags. Period. Bolting sport routes does not appeal to me right now, Trad is Rad!!!

By mobley
From Haven, Ct
Sep 20, 2008

Matt Shove wrote:
Maybe the rumor mill is alive and well, and then again, maybe it's getting blown out of proportion, again. These are the facts: I removed the poorly placed hardware store bolt (only one) with the intention of replacing it at the same time. I broke my drill bit right after I began drilling for the new SS triplex bolt, to accompany the one that was left. I have held all the good intentions required of getting back over to Ross Pond and replacing it, but I haven't made it in the last 2 weeks. I patched and camo'ed 3 drilled holes (a mess likely from the original bolter) as a community service. Sorry, but as a community, we should not stand for poorly placed bolt anchors. I did inform 2 local climbers in that RI/eastern CT circle of what I did, and what my intentions were. I asked them to pass it on to who they deemed necessary. If the rest of that anchor was removed, then it's occurred since the last time I was there (about 2 weeks). I haven't heard about it being removed. If you are attempting to implicate me as a bolt chopper of the Nichols variety, then you are wrong. If you are trying to implicate me as a bolt chopper at all, then you are still wrong. Don't drink the kool aid. I hope you'll introduce yourself to me one of these days, as I still don't know who you are Mobley. It’s pretty easy to point a finger on the internet. That being said, this is likely my last post on the topic.


I'm all for discussion. You are the one who posts something about bolts you dont like and then disappear(cut&run). That kind of behavior leads to rumors I have found. Especially if bolts disappear.
From my experience , if you start a conversation about bad bolts then dont walk away from it. You log in just about everyday(3 hours ago to be exact). Dont be a lurker.

we all know this is a touchy subject(here in this part of the world) right?

PS- I have worn out about 100 SDS bits in my life, never broken one


By Shylo
From Mystic, CT
Nov 3, 2008
Lost Boulder

The Connecticut Climbers Coalition recently got permission from the town of Southington to utilize fixed anchors at a crag called the Fire Wall for the purpose of recreation. C3 put a lot of work getting access, a building trail, and doing clean ups at the park.

Then one day after a very successful Saturday clean up Ken Nichols was seen at the top of the cliff. Six days later anchors were vandalized.

The Connecticut Climber Coalition is attempting to get Ken Nichols banned from East Peak and Hubbard Park a cliff he visits all the time and some what wrongfully has a key to the gate of. If you want to help please e-mail Mark Zebora, Director of Parks in Meriden CT.

You need to fill out the e-mail at this site:

http://www.cityofmeriden.org/directory/default.asp?CMS_Modul>>>>>

Here is sample letter of why you should write. Feel free to cut and paste it if you wish, but please write Mr. Zebora:

Dear Mr. Zebora,

It has come to my attention that a man named Ken Nichols has access, and even an access key to the road, to Hubbard Park. Mr. Nichols is a rock climber that frequents Hubbard Park on a very regular weekly basis. Very recently Mr. Nichols plead guilty and was convicted of egregiously trespassing and willful vandalism of property of a rock climbing park called Farley in Massachusetts. In fact, Mr. Nichols has been banned at several cliffs in CT, MA, NY, and NH for unnecessary and irrational acts of vandalism that put good people at risk while they are recreating. Please see http://www.stopken.org/Nichols%20Pleads%20Guilty.html and http://www.stopken.org for more information on Mr. Nichols actions.

Last weekend, Mr. Nichols was seen and is highly suspected of vandalism of rock climbing equipment that has endangered the lives of climbers at Crescent Lake Park in Southington, CT while still on probation for a prior offense. Mr. Nichols has a long history of such actions. Pictures and a description of Mr. Nichols can be found at this website. http://www.stopken.org.

It is my belief that Mr. Nichols is a clear and present danger to the safety of visitors of Hubbard Park and I am asking you to please ban his access there and to please take away his key to the gate. If you have any have questions please feel free to contact me. We are contacting Mr. Nichols parole officer and sending him pictures of Mr. Nichols strongly suspected vandalism in Southington as well.

Thank you for your attention to this matter and please let me know if you have any information regarding Mr. Nichols use of Hubbard Park.

Regards, ....


If you want to see change please write, take action, and support C3. Thank you.

By jimo
From Branford, CT
Nov 3, 2008
Another glam shot...

Unbelievable, what twisted shit is this guy thinking? This self appointed guardian of these bullshit ideals needs to be shut down!
Shylo, you're convinced it is kn who did the bashing, seems like he'd have to work with someone to ensure his own safety.
Take a minute and write the town of Meriden and voice your opinion- don't let this guy fly under the radar!

By mobley
From Haven, Ct
Nov 3, 2008

Shylo wrote:
The Connecticut Climbers Coalition recently got permission from the town of Southington to utilize fixed anchors at a crag called the Fire Wall for the purpose of recreation. C3 put a lot of work getting access, a building trail, and doing clean ups at the park. Then one day after a very successful Saturday clean up Ken Nichols was seen at the top of the cliff. Six days later anchors were vandalized. The Connecticut Climber Coalition is attempting to get Ken Nichols banned from East Peak and Hubbard Park a cliff he visits all the time and some what wrongfully has a key to the gate of. If you want to help please e-mail Mark Zebora, Director of Parks in Meriden CT. You need to fill out the e-mail at this site: http://www.cityofmeriden.org/directory/default.asp?CMS_Modul>>>>> Here is sample letter of why you should write. Feel free to cut and paste it if you wish, but please write Mr. Zebora: Dear Mr. Zebora, It has come to my attention that a man named Ken Nichols has access, and even an access key to the road, to Hubbard Park. Mr. Nichols is a rock climber that frequents Hubbard Park on a very regular weekly basis. Very recently Mr. Nichols plead guilty and was convicted of egregiously trespassing and willful vandalism of property of a rock climbing park called Farley in Massachusetts. In fact, Mr. Nichols has been banned at several cliffs in CT, MA, NY, and NH for unnecessary and irrational acts of vandalism that put good people at risk while they are recreating. Please see http://www.stopken.org/Nichols%20Pleads%20Guilty.html and http://www.stopken.org for more information on Mr. Nichols actions. Last weekend, Mr. Nichols was seen and is highly suspected of vandalism of rock climbing equipment that has endangered the lives of climbers at Crescent Lake Park in Southington, CT while still on probation for a prior offense. Mr. Nichols has a long history of such actions. Pictures and a description of Mr. Nichols can be found at this website. http://www.stopken.org. It is my belief that Mr. Nichols is a clear and present danger to the safety of visitors of Hubbard Park and I am asking you to please ban his access there and to please take away his key to the gate. If you have any have questions please feel free to contact me. We are contacting Mr. Nichols parole officer and sending him pictures of Mr. Nichols strongly suspected vandalism in Southington as well. Thank you for your attention to this matter and please let me know if you have any information regarding Mr. Nichols use of Hubbard Park. Regards, .... If you want to see change please write, take action, and support C3. Thank you.


Is it true that Ken Nichols is now allowed to climb at the Main Cliff? Hasnt he vandalized that cliff and been banned from there in the past?

By mobley
From Haven, Ct
Nov 5, 2008

Shylo wrote:
Then one day after a very successful Saturday clean up Ken Nichols was seen at the top of the cliff. Six days later anchors were vandalized. Last weekend, Mr. Nichols was seen and is highly suspected of vandalism of rock climbing equipment that has endangered the lives of climbers at Crescent Lake Park in Southington, CT while still on probation for a prior offense.


I highly suspect GWB and Dapper Dick are criminals too. I hope I dont get in trouble with the law.

By Healyje
Nov 10, 2008
girl40

Shylo wrote:
The Connecticut Climbers Coalition recently got permission from the town of Southington to utilize fixed anchors at a crag called the Fire Wall for the purpose of recreation.


Well, let me just hazard a guess that "fixed anchors" doesn't mean top anchors at Fire Wall, does it boys...?


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