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Draw thief in Maple
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By SMR
Sep 17, 2012

There is a draw thief in Maple canyon. Quick draws were stolen in the past week from Capt. Bullet plus the first 1-2 draws on Loser, Meat Eater and Jesus Freak, all located in Box.
Draws that were stolen include mostly BD draws, some marked prototype and many had gold biners.
We noticed a group of 3 college age students on Saturday scoping out lines to rappel very close to routes with quickdraws in Box and the Frontera, but didn't catch them red-handed.


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By kovacs69
From Dallas, TX
Sep 17, 2012

wrote:
"Don't leave your shit at the crag and it won't get stolen."


No that's not right...more like this.
"If you don't want to lose your gear then don't ABANDON it at the crag."

Thief reply...
"We were only cleaning up the trash you left behind."

Sorry you lost your gear.


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By T.C.
From Whittier, NC
Sep 17, 2012

Is there actually a state or federal law that was violated here? Maybe the OP should change the title of the post to "Draw removal in Maple" ??


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By SMR
Sep 17, 2012

I was simply providing a public service announcement to other climbers in MC to be careful. It is common to leave draws for a few days when climbing/projecting Plus some of the steeper lines have perma-draws.

I never stated they were my draws.


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By zenetopia
Sep 17, 2012

That is bullshit. So now we can't trust eachother enough to leave draws up for a project, or even if someone wants to do the climb again the next day? hell, two days later? They aren't abandoned, they are left there for a reason. Ok to use the draws if they are there, but not ok to take them, under any circumstance! Escpecially in a place like Maple. Thanks for the warning.


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By Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Sep 17, 2012

It's ridiculous that many of you are unloading on the OP for bringing this to our attention. There was no provocation for that sort of response to her post.

There are normally draws left on many of the difficult, overhanging routes in Maple, especially Box Canyon. This is pretty standard practice across the country and many other crags as well.

It should be obvious to anyone with the skills to get to these draws that they aren't 'abandoned property' or some such misnomer, and therefore they most likely know exactly what they are doing when they filch them.

If we run some of the arguments through to their logical conclusion about not 'abandoning' gear/hardware on steep, difficult climbs (again, as is common practice across the country) then not only would draws be fair game, but hangers/quicklinks/permadraws/bolts/anchors etc. would also be subject to so-called ethical removal by anyone willing to do so. After all, the 'owner' abandoned that stuff on the route, so why shouldn't someone feel entitled to take it?

Do we take a chance when we leave draws on a difficult route, or other hardware? Yes, but the overall response of the climbing community should be negatively directed at whoever took the draws, rather than an overwhelming condemnation of the climber who was gracious enough to place the draws on those difficult routes to begin with.

Whoever took the draws from Box Canyon knew what they were doing; they even targeted multiple routes. Shame on them! Some of the routes filched of draws are in the 5.13 range!


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By ddriver
From SLC
Sep 17, 2012

Mark Lewis wrote:
It's ridiculous that many of you are unloading on the OP for bringing this to our attention. There was no provocation for that sort of response to her post.


Even I picked up on the sarcasm.


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By kovacs69
From Dallas, TX
Sep 17, 2012

Mark Lewis wrote:
If we run some of the arguments through to their logical conclusion about not 'abandoning' gear/hardware on steep, difficult climbs (again, as is common practice across the country) then not only would draws be fair game, but hangers/quicklinks/permadraws/bolts/anchors etc. would also be subject to so-called ethical removal by anyone willing to do so. After all, the 'owner' abandoned that stuff on the route, so why shouldn't someone feel entitled to take it? Do we take a chance when we leave draws on a difficult route, or other hardware? Yes, but the overall response of the climbing community should be negatively directed at whoever took the draws, rather than an overwhelming condemnation of the climber who was gracious enough to place the draws on those difficult routes to begin with. Whoever took the draws from Box Canyon knew what they were doing; they even targeted multiple routes. Shame on them! Some of the routes filched of draws are in the 5.13 range!



First, you obviously missed out on sarcasm class in school. (Sarcasm again)

Second, What if the owner of Box Canyon took them down? Box Canyon is privately owned right? I am sure that the people who installed the bolts had some sort of agreement with the owner but did that agreement cover draws hanging for days?

I know that when I go to my climbing area, yes I do own a climbing area, and find draws hanging I take them down. To me, as an owner, the "abandoned" project draws are an eyesore. Other people who hike, bike and generally enjoy the area have complained to me about them and I remove them. Just because I installed and let others install permanent bolts does not give some Joe Blow the right to leave draws hanging around even if they are returning the next day for another try. When I take them I do post up on the area bulletin board that I have them and where they can retrieve them from. If they don't come and get them then they usually go into the communal climbing equipment box.

Third, Common practice does not make it right. If it becomes common practice for people to take project draws does that make it right?

JB


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By zenetopia
Sep 17, 2012

Wow. unbelievable.


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By Mark Lewis
From Salt Lake City, Utah
Sep 17, 2012

kovacs69 wrote:
First, you obviously missed out on sarcasm class in school. (Sarcasm again) Second, What if the owner of Box Canyon took them down? Box Canyon is privately owned right? I am sure that the people who installed the bolts had some sort of agreement with the owner but did that agreement cover draws hanging for days? I know that when I go to my climbing area, yes I do own a climbing area, and find draws hanging I take them down. To me, as an owner, the "abandoned" project draws are an eyesore. Other people who hike, bike and generally enjoy the area have complained to me about them and I remove them. Just because I installed and let others install permanent bolts does not give some Joe Blow the right to leave draws hanging around even if they are returning the next day for another try. When I take them I do post up on the area bulletin board that I have them and where they can retrieve them from. If they don't come and get them then they usually go into the communal climbing equipment box. Third, Common practice does not make it right. If it becomes common practice for people to take project draws does that make it right? JB


The conjectures you put forth in your first paragraph are useless and simply a red-herring to the issue that I was pointing out; namely, that the climbing community is erroneously quick to condemn other climbers for supposedly Ďabandoningí project and/or fixed gear that is later stolen off a route.

You can set whatever rules you like as a property-owner on your property. If you own some land and donít want draws hanging on a 5.13 route thatís your prerogative. Private property rights are not what Iím getting at in my post. The issue of the land ownerís agreement with climbers in Box Canyon in all likelihood does not preclude draws left on hangers. The highest probability is that they were deliberately taken by someone other than the land owner.

Itís apparent that you are against leaving draws on a route and consider them an eyesore, so there wonít be convincing your otherwise; however, the insinuation in your third paragraph is a slippery ethical slope that could just as easily undermine your argument rather than validate it.

Do you advocate taking project draws JB, or other fixed hardware? Is it okay to do so both on private and public land?


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By skiclimber
Sep 17, 2012
jibbing at chasm lake

Wow, I never saw this thread before, Same shit, different post, different month and still no one learns.


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By Tom T
Sep 17, 2012

zenetopia wrote:
That is bullshit. So now we can't trust eachother enough to leave draws up for a project, or even if someone wants to do the climb again the next day?



Pretty much...i had some jacked this summer. They were 'fixed' or 'abandoned' for all of 30 minutes while I gave someone else a belay.

Our fellow humans are often disappointing.


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By mikek
From SLC, UT
Sep 17, 2012

I'd hope that everyone out there knows by now that draws fixed or left on projects in areas where that's accepted practice are no more abandoned than your camping gear is when you go off climbing, or your pack is at the base of a multipitch when you're up on the wall. Describing them as abandoned is a hollow excuse for stealing.


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By Jeremy Steck
From Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 19, 2012
Me, at Red Rock Canyon

After realizing that the draws on Captain Bullet were jacked, I hung my own on it but did not send. We walked away for about 45 minutes for another climb and when we returned the suspects were setting up a rappel on some adjacent anchors. They were totally deer in the headlights when we showed up to climb. I asked them what they were doing, but they just claimed to be rappelling. One guy rappelled and they took off pronto.

Point is....these guys aren't just trying to take "abandoned draws", they're considering them to be "abandoned" while you are resting! We have their license plate number and will keep an eye out for them in the future.


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By mikek
From SLC, UT
Sep 19, 2012

So what is their license plate number?


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By T_jones
From Salty Lake
Sep 19, 2012
Fossil Family 12a, Rifle

SMR, let me just say thank you for leaving draws on those routes. In a place like Maple you expect sport climbing ethics to be understood, but unfortunately maple is also filled with beginner climbers and red necks. Sorry you got your draws stolen, I hope you get them back.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Sep 19, 2012
Stoked...

kovacs69 wrote:
First, you obviously missed out on sarcasm class in school. (Sarcasm again) Second, What if the owner of Box Canyon took them down? Box Canyon is privately owned right? I am sure that the people who installed the bolts had some sort of agreement with the owner but did that agreement cover draws hanging for days? I know that when I go to my climbing area, yes I do own a climbing area, and find draws hanging I take them down. To me, as an owner, the "abandoned" project draws are an eyesore. Other people who hike, bike and generally enjoy the area have complained to me about them and I remove them. Just because I installed and let others install permanent bolts does not give some Joe Blow the right to leave draws hanging around even if they are returning the next day for another try. When I take them I do post up on the area bulletin board that I have them and where they can retrieve them from. If they don't come and get them then they usually go into the communal climbing equipment box. Third, Common practice does not make it right. If it becomes common practice for people to take project draws does that make it right? JB


Just out of curiosity, what climbing area do you own?


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By kovacs69
From Dallas, TX
Sep 19, 2012

CaptainMo wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what climbing area do you own?


It is an area in Oklahoma that is not listed om MP. It is frequented mainly by climbers from North Texas, Oklahoma City and Tulsa. If you are ever in the neighborhood let me know and I will take you out there.

And no I do not advocate taking someone project draws.

JB


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By zenetopia
Sep 19, 2012

"It is an area in Oklahoma that is not listed om MP. It is frequented mainly by climbers from North Texas, Oklahoma City and Tulsa. If you are ever in the neighborhood let me know and I will take you out there.

And no I do not advocate taking someone project draws.

JB"

No, you don't advocate it, but you take them down yourself because they are an eyesore to hikers?


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By kovacs69
From Dallas, TX
Sep 19, 2012

zenetopia wrote:
"It is an area in Oklahoma that is not listed om MP. It is frequented mainly by climbers from North Texas, Oklahoma City and Tulsa. If you are ever in the neighborhood let me know and I will take you out there. And no I do not advocate taking someone project draws. JB" No, you don't advocate it, but you take them down yourself because they are an eyesore to hikers?


Yes, at my area but I do not keep them. They are not allowed there. I do not remove them elsewhere.


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By Jeremy Steck
From Salt Lake City, UT
Sep 21, 2012
Me, at Red Rock Canyon

Suspects License Plate number Utah 245 URY. It's a white 4 door Toyota that's pretty rusted out. They are from American Fork.


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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Sep 21, 2012

I have said this before, the climbing community is no longer a community. While I will not condone those who leave draws, pads, and other items at the crag, those that do should realize that it is not really a matter if they will be removed but when. What was just noted by Jeremy is pretty amazing and should be a warning to all. Do not leave yer shit around the crag unless you are with it at all times. That goes for leaving a pack at the base of a multi-pitch route as well as temptations for car clouts.


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By dave bingham
Sep 23, 2012

Sad. How about just leaving others property (draws, anchors, packs, etc)alone, and not making lame excuses for ripping off fellow climbers?


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