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DRAW THIEF CAUGHT AT PRIMO WALL!!!
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Nov 2, 2011
Stabby
I know a guy who was walking his dog, got into an argument w/ a neighbor and gave him a shove. By the end of all that came afterwards it was a $50K shove. Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Joined Jan 21, 2006
839 points
Nov 2, 2011
You stay away from mah pig!
bubbawayne wrote:
I hate to bust everyone's bubble, taking quickdraws off a route while morally reprehensible and unethical is not, technically, illegal. It would fall under the title of abandoned property. Don't expect the cops to help you out on this one, a smashed car window perhaps but quickdraws, not so much



Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney:

"Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure."

redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic...
camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Joined Jun 27, 2006
1,369 points
Nov 2, 2011
camhead wrote:
Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney: "Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure."


Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory?

It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case. Of course they should be concerned about the car break ins.

I say put a note on this D-Bags car letting him know that everyone knows what he's up to. I bet he'd never be seen again.
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Nov 2, 2011
Above the beautifully positioned routes at Makapuu...
Sorry to hear somebody lost some property. It definitely sounds like a bit of a shifty situation.

Also sorry to hear that land managers and police are being alerted to a practice that most will oppose. Crags are getting closed for this. It is clearly not an inalienable human right, and its widespread practice is fairly new.

Please be careful if things eventually come down to a situation of simple convenience versus local access. It is better to fly under the radar in most situations in my humble opinion.

Cheers from Osaka,

John


John Shultz
From Osaka, Japan
Joined Dec 6, 2008
50 points
Nov 2, 2011
You stay away from mah pig!
Trad Ninja wrote:
Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory? It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case.


I have exactly as much expertise in this as you do. Click the link that I posted to get any other details.

However, if we are speculating and talking out of our asses while trying to draw worthwhile comparisons, here's one that I think would be relevant to the project draws as abandoned/unattended property.

What if you were on a multi-day backpacking expedition and you left your tent in a base camp, while going out for a day hike? Would that be abandoned property? What if you left a tent at a basecamp while doing a week-long bigwall in the High Sierras? If in either of those situations the tent and any other basecamp gear was stolen off of public land, it would just be common sense to get the police involved.
camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Joined Jun 27, 2006
1,369 points
Nov 2, 2011
roo, my only son, the stare that takes down a herd...
Trad Ninja wrote:
Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory? It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case. Of course they should be concerned about the car break ins. I say put a note on this D-Bags car letting him know that everyone knows what he's up to. I bet he'd never be seen again.


I say you attach that note to a rock and put it through the car window.
Ben Beard
From Superior, AZ
Joined Jun 9, 2009
240 points
Nov 2, 2011
Which way again?
Ah, jesus, here come the Four Horsemen. It was nice knowing you guys-a permadraw fan agreeing with me is the Seventh Sign, we're all doomed!
Today's opportunity to learn something interesting...
Today's opportunity to learn something interesting from MP: google Albrecht Durer, see fine art, read about an interesting life.
Cunning Linguist
Joined Feb 15, 2007
2,478 points
Nov 2, 2011
team
johnL wrote:
I don't think I'd be shooting anyone over a draw. Not even a body shot. I've got to think though that a gun in a face of some dink trying to score free keychains would instantly alter his perception of acceptable risk. I say keep the gun unloaded, get crazy, scream, put the gun in his mouth and spout lines from movies, maybe even play some roulette. Give this guy the impression that climbers are out of their god damned minds. Also, please please please, get a video of it.


In Colorado, threatening someone with a deadly weapon is a FELONY.

You don't even have to show the weapon, just make a THREAT.

That's right just a statement will hurt your life. Tell your family, friends, co-workers if you have them you are a FELON.

The act of pointing a gun at someone, saying you will shoot them if they don't do what you say will get you Attempted Murder, Kidnapping, Disturbing the Peace, ETC. All rolled into one.

This link is for you crazy gun lovers out there that want to take vigilante actions.

ehow.com/about_7217170_definit...
Mark S
Joined Oct 16, 2011
15 points
Nov 2, 2011
The upper committing crux of Secret of the Beehive...
camhead wrote:
Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney: "Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure." redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic...


Not in Colorado and not in Clear Creek County/Jeffco County.
tcamillieri
From Denver
Joined Sep 8, 2008
1,224 points
Nov 2, 2011
For those interested: little leprechaun thief from Smith rock:




Leprechaun thief.
Leprechaun thief.
Andrew Buchan
From New York, NY
Joined Nov 7, 2008
5 points
Nov 2, 2011
So is the guy in green stealing a leprechaun with his quick-draw, is that what a leprechaun thief does? Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,494 points
Administrator
Nov 2, 2011
Red-tail Hawk, Buttermilks
Ben Beard wrote:
I say you attach that note to a rock and put it through the car window.


I like this idea, maybe use your guns on his tires as well
AWinters
From NH
Joined Apr 6, 2007
5,407 points
Nov 2, 2011
My navigator keeps me from getting lost
i've wondered about the abandoned property angle as well. is my truck abandoned when i leave it at the trailhead while i'm on a 3-day outing? Crag Dweller
From New York, NY
Joined Jul 17, 2006
274 points
Nov 2, 2011
Buff Johnson wrote:
So is the guy in green stealing a leprechaun with his quick-draw, is that what a leprechaun thief does?



I should have explained the picture more clearly. The leprechaun fellow was quietly collecting draws from nearby sport routes, and otherwise minding his own business, when he was accosted by the aggressive sport climber in green.
Andrew Buchan
From New York, NY
Joined Nov 7, 2008
5 points
Nov 2, 2011
sloping
Killis Howard wrote:
Somebody send koreo a random plate number so he can go chasing after a total stranger with a baseball bat based on internet rumor. Wake up call to tough-talking tuffguys: when you threaten, brandish a weapon, or strike a stranger, you open yourself up to pretty cut-and-dried legal consequences. Seen it happen myself. If they have a witness or even just a sympathetic judge, you will pay fines and/or go to jail. Sorry to dilute the testosterone, just pointing out the reality. Having assault, battery and other fun stuff on your record might have a longer effect on your hiring potential than a few biners will on your wallet. You may now return to your regularly scheduled nonsense.


Have to be arrested first and proven guilty. Legal system is far from perfect kids. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and a clean record. Wake up call to the samaritan.
Flame on kids.
koreo
From Denver, CO
Joined Aug 24, 2009
90 points
Nov 2, 2011
camhead wrote:
I have exactly as much expertise in this as you do. Click the link that I posted to get any other details. However, if we are speculating and talking out of our asses while trying to draw worthwhile comparisons, here's one that I think would be relevant to the project draws as abandoned/unattended property. What if you were on a multi-day backpacking expedition and you left your tent in a base camp, while going out for a day hike? Would that be abandoned property? What if you left a tent at a basecamp while doing a week-long bigwall in the High Sierras? If in either of those situations the tent and any other basecamp gear was stolen off of public land, it would just be common sense to get the police involved.


Hey, I dunno either, just asking. I would guess time and value is an issue. If you leave a tent for three weeks and someone takes it I think cops will probably say "tough shit". It's a judgement call. As for project draws I think one month is a pretty fair period of time to say that after that they've been abandoned.

This guy isn't someone trying to make a point about proj draws obviously, he's a thief! Next time someone sees the car take dump on the hood.
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Nov 3, 2011
Dragon's Tongue - Vail, Co.
johnL wrote:
I don't think I'd be shooting anyone over a draw. Not even a body shot. I've got to think though that a gun in a face of some dink trying to score free keychains would instantly alter his perception of acceptable risk. I say keep the gun unloaded, get crazy, scream, put the gun in his mouth and spout lines from movies, maybe even play some roulette. Give this guy the impression that climbers are out of their god damned minds. Also, please please please, get a video of it.


Yes, because threatening someone with a gun never escalates or has unintended consequences. I know the thought of a douche like this being on the receiving end of an ass beating is really satisfying, but seriously...

You people (the ones calling for a beating as well as the gun commentary) are advocating violence as a response to petty theft.
Christian Mason
From Arvada, CO
Joined Jul 19, 2007
66 points
Nov 3, 2011
Violence...well if it's coming to stealing leprechauns, I'll protect me lucky charms Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,494 points
Nov 3, 2011
theodor adorno.
Killis Howard wrote:
Ah, jesus, here come the Four Horsemen. It was nice knowing you guys-a permadraw fan agreeing with me is the Seventh Sign, we're all doomed!


That is a great woodcut... And book. There are many days I feel pursued by one or all of them. Sometimes climbing feels like counting coup with death. But sooner or later he'll run me down!

Here's the whole set: Durer Revelation

Hijack much?

Take your stuff with you when you go home, if possible, no matter how hard you climb or what sponsorships you have. The guy stealing is a dink and should be put off from it by legal means and attentiveness.
Scott Thalacker
From Logan, UT
Joined Jun 3, 2006
50 points
Nov 3, 2011
Buff Johnson wrote:
So is the guy in green stealing a leprechaun with his quick-draw, is that what a leprechaun thief does?


I just spit coffee through my nose reading that.
Merlin
From Grand Junction
Joined Mar 13, 2006
50 points
Nov 3, 2011
bolts
the full smith leprachaun vs dude with big forearms vid...


mountainproject.com/v/smith-ro...
snowdenroad
Joined Jun 25, 2007
39 points
Nov 7, 2011
Mark S wrote:
In Colorado, threatening someone with a deadly weapon is a FELONY. You don't even have to show the weapon, just make a THREAT. That's right just a statement will hurt your life. Tell your family, friends, co-workers if you have them you are a FELON. The act of pointing a gun at someone, saying you will shoot them if they don't do what you say will get you Attempted Murder, Kidnapping, Disturbing the Peace, ETC. All rolled into one. This link is for you crazy gun lovers out there that want to take vigilante actions. ehow.com/about_7217170_definit...



Mark you are an absolute idiot.

Maybe you should use more than e-how.com to research reality and stop living a fantasy life.
Moron.
MTucker
Joined Oct 25, 2011
0 points
Administrator
Nov 7, 2011
Bouldering in Joshua Tree
What are you talking about Larry? I think MTucker did a wonderful job of dissecting Mark's argument and responding in kind. I am totally converted. Colin Parker
From Idyllwild, CA
Joined Mar 16, 2008
1,826 points
Nov 7, 2011
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Pea...
MTucker is also on Supertaco. Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Joined Jan 1, 2001
1,494 points


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