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By bearbreeder
Sep 27, 2012

TomCaldwell wrote:
This is completely out of context. He is not onsighting the climb. The gear is already set for this climb and the style. So regardless of who it is, it doesn't accurate portray a good onsight rack. There are climbs on granite locally that will only take specific size cams, where having one of the others it will not protect even if you are Honnold. So this picture is worthless to this discussion.


i think calling other people dumb for using doubles of the same type is worthless to the discussion ;)

so you MUST have different doubles when onsighting ... most interesting ... i never knew there was a special onsight cam rack ... i just use whatever rack i have

nor did the OPask for a special "onsight" rack ;)

heres a person who is obviously not onsighting, but is absolutely dumb for using a few c4 doubles ... hes only doing and e10 climb here



different micro/smaller cams can help ... but i havent found anything place yet that will take a larger C4 (say green+),but not say a metolius ... if its that finicky ill pull out the tricams ... but who knows, im dumb =P


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By brat
From Dolores, CO
Sep 27, 2012
Celebrating on Intersection Rock, JTree.

I hear the new Friends are awesome, and lighter than Camalots. Reason enough for me! :)


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 27, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

bearbreeder, your point was that because Honnold uses the double of the same brand cam that this is what you are supposed to do. Obviously, Honnold is going to know exactly what piece goes where on each pitch and what he needs for that climb and has nothing to do with utility which is what the OP was asking for. There are topos for speed climbing the Nose that show specifically where each piece goes and and how many of each you need in total. My point is that your picture and statement are not applicable to this discussion because it is for one specific climb and not trad climbing in general (i.e. onsighting).

I used to use doubles of C4's. That rack is heavier than supplementing with another brand, because C4's are heavier than most other cams. I also learned that having doubles of every C4 doesn't mean you will be able to get good gear. Take off-hands size for example, perfect cam is lavender metolius. If you try and place the #2 or #3 C4 neither will work well. #3 your partner may not be able to clean it, #2 will be tipped out and unsafe. I understand the point of using whatever you have, but when you have a choice because you can afford new cams or whatever the reason it is better to have a variety to fill the gaps. It wasn't until I experienced these poor fitments that I realized there are gaps in the BD sizes.


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By Medic741
From Pittsford, New York
Sep 27, 2012
When I was a bum at Frey

Trusting what a gear shop employee says is like trusting a monkey. You have no idea if they know why they're talking about and most of the time they're explaining the differences as they're reading the tag of the product. Just sayin.

That said there are really knowledgable sales people you just gotta make sure you're talking to one.


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By bearbreeder
Sep 27, 2012

TomCaldwell wrote:
bearbreeder, your point was that because Honnold uses the double of the same brand cam that this is what you are supposed to do. Obviously, Honnold is going to know exactly what piece goes where on each pitch and what he needs for that climb and has nothing to do with utility which is what the OP was asking for. There are topos for speed climbing the Nose that show specifically where each piece goes and and how many of each you need in total. My point is that your picture and statement are not applicable to this discussion because it is for one specific climb and not trad climbing in general (i.e. onsighting). I used to use doubles of C4's. That rack is heavier than supplementing with another brand, because C4's are heavier than most other cams. I also learned that having doubles of every C4 doesn't mean you will be able to get good gear. Take off-hands size for example, perfect cam is lavender metolius. If you try and place the #2 or #3 C4 neither will work well. #3 your partner may not be able to clean it, #2 will be tipped out and unsafe. I understand the point of using whatever you have, but when you have a choice because you can afford new cams or whatever the reason it is better to have a variety to fill the gaps.


ive never had an issue placing either the #2 or #3 camalot ... but who knows maybe its different from the places ive climbed

like i said there are plenty of very good climbers who use doubles of the same mid-larger cams without any issues ...

as to the C4s being heavier ... youll likely need an extra metolius cam to compensate for the range with the associated racking biner ... so its a wash

im told that i have some minor experiences with different types of cams ...


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 27, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Yup, Honnold is even quoted as saying he never carries a #2 camalot because that is his hand size. Giving advice to a new climber, which the OP said he was, by referencing a professional who mostly free solos is not sound. Really strong climbers can just run things out because the climbing is easy. Someone new will want sound protection whenever they are climbing. Ever try to protect the off-hands cruxes of In Pursuit of Excellence or Frosted Flake? I can rattle off a lot more routes that will only take cams that fit in the BD gaps.

You won't need an extra metolius cam to fit in the gaps of the BD ranges. The metolius fits right in between except for one cam, which is the same as the #1. Your picture only supports the fact of having multiple brands to choose from.


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By Jeff Fiedler
Sep 27, 2012

Thanks for the posts of the data on cam sizing.

Just saying, but if you look at say the C4 sizing, each cam overlaps in range with the cam TWO SIZES UP. And about a 50% overlap with the closest size up.

So really?! What do folks mean by a "gap" in any brand of cams.

If mixing brands makes you feel better, go for it. But I am unpersuaded that my doubled-up BDs leave me missing out on much.

TomCaldwell, maybe you just need to get different sized hands for your off-hands climb? ;-)


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 27, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Jeff Fiedler wrote:
Thanks for the posts of the data on cam sizing. Just saying, but if you look at say the C4 sizing, each cam overlaps in range with the cam TWO SIZES UP. And about a 50% overlap with the closest size up. So really?! What do folks mean by a "gap" in any brand of cams. If mixing brands makes you feel better, go for it. But I am unpersuaded that my doubled-up BDs leave me missing out on much. TomCaldwell, maybe you just need to get different sized hands for your off-hands climb? ;-)


Jeff, it looks like you are only climbing moderate routes from your profile here, true? I would completely agree, that 95% of the moderate routes you can protect with only BD. Harder trad climbs (mid10's+) often have less features to place gear, so getting the piece to fit exactly is more important because it may be the only one keeping you off the ground. Even though BD cams may appear to have overlap from the chart, when a cam is nearly tipped out but still in the range and you pitch off a steep gear route it will probably rip.


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By bearbreeder
Sep 27, 2012

Yup, Honnold is even quoted as saying he never carries a #2 camalot because that is his hand size. Giving advice to a new climber, which the OP said he was, by referencing a professional who mostly free solos is not sound.

Jeff, it looks like you are only climbing moderate routes from your profile here, true? I would completely agree, that 95% of the moderate routes you can protect with only BD.



weird ... that photo i posted clearly shows a #2 on his harness ;)

i guess were all doing it wrong here in squamish ... plenty of peope climb with double BDs ... or even single BDs ...

saying that people are "dumb" for using doubles of the same size when clearly there are people who can likely climb harder and better than you who do ... aint quite sound =P

but who knows im not calling people dumb for using different types of gear ... the OP is better off IMO climbing with a partner who already has a rack as well so theyll double up ... just pray that they arent the same type ... or theyll be "dumb"

perhaps the OP doesnt climb at the same level as yr hardcoreness since hes likely a newer trad climber, and climbs more moderate routes not in yr area =O


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 27, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

I will agree that maybe "dumb" wasn't the correct word to use in my first post. I probably should have said wisest. You are correct bearbreeder, it does depend on location. You say you are climbing a lot at Squamish, which nobody would know because you don't have anything on your profile. I am climbing on a different kind of granite. Most of the granite in Squamish is cracks, whereas locally it is a lot of faces. So advice will originate from each persons experiences differently. I wasn't trying to portray myself as a hardcore climber, it just seems hard to believe that someone is climbing high-end gear routes that they wouldn't have come across situations where it was better to have another brand cam to protect a certain move, but that all goes back to location. Indian Creek is on the extreme side of that spectrum as been said where you can use the several of the same cam on one route. So now the OP knows that he can get away with doubles of BD in Squamish. There are plenty of routes locally that you can get away with singles of BD, what is your point?

Just because he has a #2 on his harness for the speed ascent of the Nose doesn't mean anything. It only shows that it is important to the system for that ascent. When you are running most gear out 20-60' in a speed style ascent, Honnolds own words don't even apply.


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By bearbreeder
Sep 27, 2012

well thats settled then ... perhaps we should ask where the OP intends to climb ;)

in any case my advice is the same ... climb with someone experienced enough to have a rack as well ... if they are double BDs i wouldnt worry overly personally ... if they are something else you get the chance to try out what cams you may like

the OP will likely be climbing moderates anyways

as to my "picture" ... i happily climb on my partners BD doubles, my own doubles, or any other cam ... its the climber that matters =P


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Sep 27, 2012
OTL

Threads getting good.

Seriously, just double up on some of my ?cam for sale here.?


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By Daniel Wade
From Chicago, IL.
Sep 27, 2012
w/ Katie Heineman

I will agree with the consensus - stick with BD from .5-4 for your doubles. I have a single set of TCUs and Stoppers that cover the small stuff. Occasionally I will borrow a set of C3s to double the smaller stuff but I find it unnecessary on most stuff I do. I actually got rid of my .3 and .4 C4.


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By Ian Stewart
Sep 27, 2012

TomCaldwell wrote:
Take off-hands size for example, perfect cam is lavender metolius. If you try and place the #2 or #3 C4 neither will work well. #3 your partner may not be able to clean it, #2 will be tipped out and unsafe.


I've never used the bigger Metolius cams, but I'm assuming that the "lavender" you mention is a #8 Powercam (advertised as light purple). The Metolius site says that the usable range of a #8 is 49.0-71.1mm (see www.metoliusclimbing.com/cam-range.html). The #2 C4 has a range of 37.2-64.9mm and the #3 a range of 50.7-87.9mm (see www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/climb/protection/ca>>>.

I'm still pretty much a trad noob and I've never used the powercams (only have doubles in C4s myself), but I'm not sure I can picture a situation where a #2 or #3 C4 wouldn't work while a #8 Powercam would. I'm guessing a "perfect" placement would be right in the middle of the range, or in the case of the #8 that's about 60mm. Sure, the #2 might be reaching its upper limits here, within 5mm of its max, but the #3 would still have a good 9mm left on the lower end...which should be plenty of room to clean it. Really, based on those numbers, the #3 C4 can be used in a much larger placement than the #8, while on the low end it's less than 2mm bigger.

I'm not arguing, but I am curious...is there something else other than the listed ranges that make the Powercam better here? Is it narrower, possibly making a tight placement easier to clean or something?


Edit: I just noticed that the #8 Powercam is listed at 150g while the #3 C4 is 201g (#2 is 155g). So, yes, I guess I can see why you'd want to double up with other brand cams since they're lighter (and possibly place better).

That being said, for a noobie like me I really do like having doubles in the C4s. I'm still not great at choosing the right piece the first time, so the wide range of the C4s plus the fact that I only own C4s so it's easier to learn the sizing makes it very appealing.

Perhaps I will change my mind about what cams I will double up with in the future, but I don't think you're even "wrong" you double up on C4s. Worst case scenario you replace them in the future (it's not hard to sell C4s).


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 27, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Ian, 5mm of max is not much room for expansion. That means on both sides of the cam you only have to have 2.5mm of rock scratch away in order for the cam to pull. You can easily generate that amount of force in a lead fall, especially on certain types of rock, even granite. Remember that chart is the absolute range, not the working range. Ever notice the range finder on the metolius cams? That the more open they are the more the range finder goes into the red. This is the same situation. In the "light purple" metolius range, the #2 will be in the red for sure. If you are doing a climb that specifically says OH on the topo for the crux and it stays that size for a while, the #2 will probably not make you happy and the #3 may get stuck, especially if the rope hits it.

My main point is that there is more utility in having different sets to supplement one another. You are definitely correct about the ease of selling C4's after you buy them, of course at a loss or until the X4s come out. I ended up selling my double's of BD, except for #1-3. Cams last a long time, and buying the doubles of the same set doesn't have much utility except for those few exceptions (Indian Creek, Squamish).

The OP will likely be climbing moderates and the two OH climbs I mentioned were only 5.9. How about P2 of the super classic Frog Land (5.8), ever see a #1 C4 stuck on that climb. It happens a lot, because .75 is too small, and #1 gets stuck, but black metolius will be perfect. You might be able to get away with it, until the sun hits your cam and expands it, stuck!


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 27, 2012
Bocan

Yeah I really agree with Tom on this. Just hold up a #2 BD and WC #2.5 by and over each other. Same offset range, but HUGE head size difference.

It's been invaluable to me climbing in CO. I'm sure every area is different, but my TCU's and WC's are amazing on the rack. BD's are super bomber but the cams are BIG, even in the small sizes.

Of course to each their own. :o)


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By mattm
From TX
Sep 27, 2012
Grande Grotto

Jon Moen wrote:
As a post above mentions, from 0.5 (Purple Camalot) upwards, there isn't much advantage to diversification. An exception to this is at Indian Creek, where the slight gaps in the Camalot sizing become obvious. Still, for your second set of cams, I'd just get another set of C4s from 0.5 upwards. Below 0.5, in the finger sizes, diversification of you cam rack helps a lot, since placements in these sizes are much more finicky. Aliens or Master Cams would be a great choice for supplementing your BD cams. It might help if you say where you usually climb, since this affects rack choice.


^ THIS ^

20 years of Trad climbing all over the place and the above is nearly EXACTLY what I've found as well. My only change is .75 BD and up. The .5 size needs different brands because the .5 BD can be too wide head wise.

EDIT to agree with Bearbreeder - it's more on the climber than what the perfect rack is. I have a "B" rack stashed in So Cal and it's a total Franken Rack of WC, BD, Metolius etc and I can make it work just fine. I might take me a day out to "adjust" my mind to the sizing changes but you figure it out pretty quickly.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Sep 27, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Boy, I'm glad we have Tom here to field questions and clarify ev.er.y.thing. There is nothing wrong with having doubles of the same brand, the "overlap" "between sizes" BS is ultimately just that. If the difference between you using your "onsight" or "utility" rack to get a route on the onsight or not is the few millimeters between sizes in competing brands, guess what? You probably weren't going to get it anyway.

Maybe for some routes where you need very specific gear things change.

But then the sun shines and your cam is stuck forever.

WTF, over?

Here's a saying to clarify it all: You use what you have.

Get it?

BITD, they had nuts and maybe a few rigid stem cams. They got up all the same routes.

I often have the "utility" rack Tom espouses. But I also use friends' racks that have doubles of the same brand. It's more about knowing how to use the rack and sizes that you have than it is having every gradation of the continuum marked off. Most cracks are more forgiving than that. Where I live, anyway.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 27, 2012
Bocan

I don't think the benefit necessarily is about the camming range, but more the head size. As dirty as that sounds it's not the 6.7mm of offset range that make a difference to me, it's about the cam that fits due to a smaller head width and overall size. Many cams have a rounded shape while BD has more of that pointy egg. haha not sure what geometric shape you'd call that.

But you're right, climb with what you got.


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By Ian Stewart
Sep 27, 2012

TomCaldwell wrote:
Remember that chart is the absolute range, not the working range.


Sorry, I had read those ranges wrong (thought they were the usable ranges). I found another useful chart (hopefully it's accurate) that lists the usable ranges of a bunch of different cams based on the assumption that the usable range is between 10 and 60% of the min/max: clydesoles.com/Front/Camsbrand.html

The first thing I read on this chart still had me doubting your example since a #3 C4 is listed as 53-71mm, while the #8 Powercam is listed as 53-66mm, which is a subset of what the #3 C4 covers...

TomCaldwell wrote:
How about P2 of the super classic Frog Land (5.8), ever see a #1 C4 stuck on that climb. It happens a lot, because .75 is too small, and #1 gets stuck, but black metolius will be perfect.


...then I read this and looked it up. This is a much better example: the usable range of the 0.75 is 25-33mm while the #1 is 33-43mm, so if you find yourself with a 33mm placement then neither will be that great. Meanwhile, the black Metolius is 30-37mm, so that 33mm placement would be perfect (and the Metolius is only 82g compared to the 119/136g of the 0.75 and #1...a fraction of the weight).

Although I have doubles C4s and that's all I've ever used for trad climbing without issue (though probably only about 50 pitches total), there's a good chance I'll consider trying out and possibly replacing my second set with another brand. Filling in some "half" sizes with much lighter cams seems good to me.

TomCaldwell wrote:
You are definitely correct about the ease of selling C4's after you buy them, of course at a loss or until the X4s come out.


The X4s are smaller cams, nearly identical to the Mastercams. I don't think their release will affect the price of C4s.


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 28, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

I completely agree with the statement, "use what you got". No reason to stop climbing because you don't have complimentary camming sizes, but the OP is asking about buying a new set. A good analogy for recommending the same size is no different than recommending your mechanic friend to buy two sets of the same SAE sockets, when metric is also available.

Scott, I also like the WC cams. I have used an older buddy of mine's old rigids and they have proven invaluable. The nice thing about some of the bigger WC from 1.5 and above is they are similar to the metolius sizing. It has been nice climbing with some FA'ers who have been in the local scene for over 25-40 years. I definitely appreciate having been shown some of these specific placements, especially in a place where bolts were kept to a minimum and gear is paramount like the SE is known for.

Mustard, you may not believe that with a little heat a cam can get stuck, but you would be very wrong. Metal expands a lot when heated. Simple things like placing a cam into a warm wall when the air outside is cold or placing it into a warm water streak will get your cam stuck. While having an appropriate size of another brand the range would have allowed you to pull it successfully. I hope to have some pictures up from Frost Flake this weekend to show my point about #8 powercam and OH placements, and from another climb the black metolius versus .75.


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By mattm
From TX
Sep 28, 2012
Grande Grotto

While cam range overlap is certainly a consideration (and in some sizes a valid one), OTHER factors that can affect your choice on what to double up with have seen little discussion.

- Yes, range gaps do exist and MIGHT be a factor. Frankly,the likelihood that you'll be hosed UNLESS you have that alternate brand piece are pretty rare in MOST places. Yeah, the desert has climbs where you really do NEED a #2 WC or, as pointed out above, a certain Metolius Cam size but in MANY, MANY areas, you can just move the cam up or down a tiny bit and make up that 3mm (or whatever) difference.

- I'm not a big fan of the Metolius Power Cams. I don't like the U-Stem design and the way the two middle cams are pretty much touching each other makes it more like a HUGE TCU than a 4CU. I think this combo limits the cams ability to adapt to coarse textured rock. Also, the smaller cam angle makes it more likely you won't get the placement right the first time. You have less "range reserve" to use. The "range reserve" issue isn't that common (it's probably the same as the size gap issue) but it does occur

- WC camming range typically prevents any of the "Range Reserve" issues and the single stem "classic" layout seems, to me, to be more versatile in placements. However, I've found with the WC that they also don't place as well in coarsely grained rock. Large crystals = finicky placements. The WC cam lobes also seem to be the most prone to tipping or inverting. This is especially true where the placement flares inward. WC lobes just seem more "floppy" and I've had more of them flop into crap placements than any other brand including Metolius.

- BD C4s. These certainly have their drawbacks too. They're heavier (although this has never bothered me that much since I have pretty light biners - it can be a bigger issue if you're sporting 40g+ biners on each cam etc etc) They also have their range gaps as noted previously. All that said however, I've found the the C4s (above .75 or 1) place more consistently in more places than most other cams. Something about the double axel and cam angle makes these FAR BETTER in any type of coarsely grained rock and the cams DO NOT tip.

Of course my opinion is just that and you may have to adapt to what your local area calls for.(Note that I have yet to climb in the SE so it MIGHT be different there)

Since you're just starting out and building your first rack, I think it's more important to really LEARN one sizing scheme really well. As your gain experience you'll be able to decide if the sizing limitations are really that big a deal for you and diversify as needed. No big deal. I think the benefits of the C4, for the most part, are a better choice.


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By bearbreeder
Sep 28, 2012

The OP should just go out and climb and not worry about what we MP "experts" think about his gear

Hell figure it out doubles or no doubles, same cams or different ones, etc ... The more he climbs the better hell know what he needs

Its not like hes being particularly unsafe

Time to go climb and pray it dun rain ;)


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 28, 2012
Bocan

mattm wrote:
While cam range overlap is certainly a consideration (and in some sizes a valid one), OTHER factors that can affect your choice on what to double up with have seen little discussion. - Yes, range gaps do exist and MIGHT be a factor. Frankly,the likelihood that you'll be hosed UNLESS you have that alternate brand piece are pretty rare in MOST places. Yeah, the desert has climbs where you really do NEED a #2 WC or, as pointed out above, a certain Metolius Cam size but in MANY, MANY areas, you can just move the cam up or down a tiny bit and make up that 3mm (or whatever) difference. - I'm not a big fan of the Metolius Power Cams. I don't like the U-Stem design and the way the two middle cams are pretty much touching each other makes it more like a HUGE TCU than a 4CU. I think this combo limits the cams ability to adapt to coarse textured rock. Also, the smaller cam angle makes it more likely you won't get the placement right the first time. You have less "range reserve" to use. The "range reserve" issue isn't that common (it's probably the same as the size gap issue) but it does occur - WC camming range typically prevents any of the "Range Reserve" issues and the single stem "classic" layout seems, to me, to be more versatile in placements. However, I've found with the WC that they also don't place as well in coarsely grained rock. Large crystals = finicky placements. The WC cam lobes also seem to be the most prone to tipping or inverting. This is especially true where the placement flares inward. WC lobes just seem more "floppy" and I've had more of them flop into crap placements than any other brand including Metolius. - BD C4s. These certainly have their drawbacks too. They're heavier (although this has never bothered me that much since I have pretty light biners - it can be a bigger issue if you're sporting 40g+ biners on each cam etc etc) They also have their range gaps as noted previously. All that said however, I've found the the C4s (above .75 or 1) place more consistently in more places than most other cams. Something about the double axel and cam angle makes these FAR BETTER in any type of coarsely grained rock and the cams DO NOT tip. Of course my opinion is just that and you may have to adapt to what your local area calls for.(Note that I have yet to climb in the SE so it MIGHT be different there) Since you're just starting out and building your first rack, I think it's more important to really LEARN one sizing scheme really well. As your gain experience you'll be able to decide if the sizing limitations are really that big a deal for you and diversify as needed. No big deal. I think the benefits of the C4, for the most part, are a better choice.


Nice post. The one comment I have is like you said it depends on location. There's been plenty of times especially climbing in the flatirons where I can't "just slide a cam up". My choices are a WC 2.5 that fits, a BD #2 that doesn't or a tipped out BD #1. Sure I can keep going looking for more placements, but 40ft above a piece I take what I can get.

I've found that granite lends more to the deeper "slider" cracks which BD's REALLY shine and sandstone which has much trickier and shallow placements where I use my TCUs and WC more.

So I really think it does depend on location, location, location.

Buy 3 racks...it's the only answer. :o) Really we just all like to talk about gear, especially when we're stuck inside.


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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Sep 28, 2012
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credits to Kyle Jones and his lucky anti-rain jacket.

Scott, the granite comment about lending itself to sliding up a cam is again location dependent. You can't do that on many of the granite faces in SE. There are very few laser cut cracks in granite around here. This also applies to sandstone and quartzite in the SE, conglomerate in the NE, aztec sandstone in the SW, and monzogranite in the SW. It is kind of crazy that some of the people proclaiming doubles of BD is best and yet they haven't traveled much. Some of them, you can't even tell their trad experience from their profile. The real answer is, that if you plan on traveling having the most versatile rack will serve you best. Having done over 2000 pitches in the SE, NE, and SW one of my favorite additions to my rack was the tri-cams. These are way more versatile and lighter than any cam on the market, and they are still "cams" like the OP is looking for. They also work well in the BD gaps.

So yeah, buy an extra set of those SAE sockets until you start stripping bolts, then get the metric and sell your old SAE doubles for half their value.


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