Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Double sheet bend for rappelling
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Buddy B.
Jan 30, 2013

I was wondering if anyone sees a problem with using this knot for rappelling?
The only reason i would not want to use a offset overhand of figure eight bend is that my ropes are of much different diameters plus i love this knot! Works great for different diameter lines and easy to untie after loaded.

www.animatedknots.com/sheetbend/

Look hard its the DOUBLE sheet bend


And don't worry just because someone tells me I can, doesn't mean Im going to go put my life on the line because of something someone told me on the net


FLAG
By Cor
Jan 30, 2013
black nasty

Just use a EDK (or a double EDK) - which is a simple overhand knot.

It is just as easy to untie (probably, as I have not used a sheet bend.)
And it will stay out of the cracks when pulling,
unlike inline knots (trace 8, fishermans, sheet bend, etc...)


FLAG
By bearbreeder
Jan 30, 2013

EDK

KISS

its that simple ;)


FLAG
By scott cooney
From La Casa Taco
Jan 30, 2013
11th hour of the Sundial

everything is a trade off one way or another, the double sheet bend is the best knot for attaching two lines of different diameters, and like a bowline extremely easy to untie. BUT the advantage of the EDK is that it natually turns outwards when pulling making it less likely to jam in a crack. normally even though your climbing rope diameters are differnt but they aren't THAT differnt ie say 6mm tag line and 10.2 primary at the most extreme. Sheet bend was more used by sailors for attaching a heaving line to a large mooring line think clothes line to 3 in diameter monster.


FLAG
By Ben Ricketts
From Salt Lake City, UT
Jan 30, 2013

The sheet bend is useful for tying two ropes of different diameters together. One of the main benefits of the sheet bend or double sheet bend is that they are easy to untie. In my opinion this is not a desired trait in a knot used for repelling. Especially when doing multiple repels.


FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jan 30, 2013
El Chorro

The first thing I think when I see that video is that I would absolutely never trust my life to that knot. But I suppose it's a cool knot and if I had two ropes and tied a double sheet bend I may think otherwise.

Either way I'll always use the EDK.


FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jan 30, 2013
El Chorro

Ben Ricketts wrote:
The sheet bend is useful for tying two ropes of different diameters together. One of the main benefits of the sheet bend or double sheet bend is that they are easy to untie. In my opinion this is not a desired trait in a knot used for repelling. Especially when doing multiple repels.


Rappel.

Sorry.


FLAG
By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jan 30, 2013
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

The EDK is the flat overhand bend on the website you mention. Do not use a figure eight like this, they capsize easily.

The figure 8 from the website is okay, but can be really hard to untie.

The sheetbend is a weaker knot, but in the configuration you are suggesting probably not weaker than the EDK? I don't think there's been any testing on it with modern ropes, but you might be able to find Alpine Journal tests from the 1920s.

If you don't like the EDK, the double-fisherman's is very strong. I switch between the two, depending on whether I'm simulrapping and whether I'm pulling over edges.


FLAG
 
By MTKirk
From Billings, MT
Jan 30, 2013
Me on Supercrack

I worked on a crane and we used sheet bends all the time to attach a small guide line to the hook on the end of the load line. The reason we used the sheet bend is that you can simply shake the thing untied while you are on the ground and the hook is high above you. That's not really what I'm looking for in a rappel knot. EDK all the way!


FLAG
By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Jan 30, 2013

MTkirk - are you sure you weren't using a blackwall hitch?

The sheet bend is bomber. It's fine, it's perfectly safe. You can use virtually any bend for rappelling.


FLAG
By Buddy B.
Jan 30, 2013

Good info thanks everybody

The EDK was what Iv been told to use in the past always seemed to simple to tie and hard to untie.
Always thought it was a little funny that it had the words "Death Knot" in the name.

Anyway Ill stick with it for ledges and cracks and if Im paranoid Ill go with the double fisherman.

If anyone has or finds some info on the breaking strength of these different knots please share : )


FLAG
By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Jan 30, 2013

These guys can help you get some facts.

www.igkt.net


FLAG
By MTKirk
From Billings, MT
Jan 30, 2013
Me on Supercrack

steitz wrote:
MTkirk - are you sure you weren't using a blackwall hitch? The sheet bend is bomber. It's fine, it's perfectly safe. You can use virtually any bend for rappelling.



Used them both, the sheet bend when there was more guide pulling involved. Yes it's more secure than the blackwall, but still with a whipping motion you can get it to untie. I guess if you had the ends long enough it would probably be pretty secure. I don't think the double turn really adds much security. It's sort of like the double bowline in that it adds more length that has to slip, but does nothing to cinch the knot tighter.


FLAG
By MTKirk
From Billings, MT
Jan 30, 2013
Me on Supercrack

steitz wrote:
This may be a pendantic point but a sheet bend tied around a hook isn't really a sheet bend. You can call it that and it takes the same form, but it's a different knot. A sheet bend only becomes such when tied with two lengths of line.



Not pedantic at all, clarity is important in these things. You've got me fiddling with a rope, hook, and knot chart always a good thing! (do this more than I care to admit).

For giggles I just joined a climbing rope with a double sheet bend exactly as in www.animatedknots.com/sheetbend/, took me a little less than 30 seconds of vigorous shaking to get it to untie when unloaded. No it won't come undone while loaded (when you're rapping), but I prefer my ropes to remain tied when I pull them... jus' sayin'


FLAG
By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Jan 30, 2013

Fair enough, we've all got to respect risk and figure out what we're acceptable with.


FLAG
By Eric Krantz
From Black Hills
Jan 31, 2013
smoke break, pitch 5 or 6 (or 7??) of Dark Shadows

MTKirk wrote:
took me a little less than 30 seconds of vigorous shaking to get it to untie when unloaded. No it won't come undone while loaded (when you're rapping), but I prefer my ropes to remain tied when I pull them... jus' sayin'


There's a good point. Imagine you've pulled the rope a bit and the other end is off the ground, then the knot gets stuck or jammed. You start shaking it a whipping it around and it comes untied. You're six pitches up wishing you'd have used the EDK.


FLAG
 
By wivanoff
Jan 31, 2013
High Exposure

Would never use it when rappelling. The flat overhand or flat double fisherman's are both much better.

But, I use a single sheet bend to tie on my chalk bag with a loop of 6mm cord. The sheet bend is easily adjustable and I always have the 6mm cord with me for prusiks, load releasable knots, leashes, extending the rappel device, etc.


FLAG
By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Feb 1, 2013
The traverse out to the Yellow Ridge on the Dogstick Ridge link-up.  Photo by Myriam Bouchard

BITD we used to tie equal-diameter rappel ropes together with a square knot backed up by barrel knots on each side (barrel knot=1/2 double fisherman's). When the diameters were different, it was not unusual to use a double sheet bend with the barrel backups. With those backups, you can't shake the knot loose. But this now ancient history; there's no reason nowadays not to use the EDK, which, by the way, works fine for ropes of different diameters if you tie it correctly.


FLAG
By TWK
Feb 1, 2013

Ryan Williams wrote:
Rappel. Sorry.

Don't be sorry, Ryan, other than you beat me to it.
The first step to wisdom is to call things by their correct names. The next step is to spell them correctly.
Moving on . . .


FLAG
By Healyje
Feb 1, 2013
girl40

Any Beginning or Intermediate Climber:

I was wondering if it would be ok to...
I had this idea...
I was thinking about the way they do abc in xyz activity..


Unless you have a bunch of years and a lot of serious yardage in to it, then rock climbing really isn't an activity where you want to head out trying to innovate with the gear. Really it's just the contrary - you want to get fully steeped in the traditional uses of the gear we all conventionally use in the way we conventionally use it until it becomes more or less second nature. If you think of, or run across, something you haven't seen in common use in the gym, out at the crags, or talked about ad nauseum online - then you should probably just take a pass on it.

Creativity and curiosity are great, but the old saying about the latter still rings true.


FLAG
By steitz
From midcoast, maine
Feb 1, 2013

Fun fact - the square knot isn't actually a bend and shouldn't be relied on to reliably join two ropes. Off the top of my head I think it falls into the category of binding hitches.


FLAG
By Robert Cort
Feb 1, 2013

Fun fact: If you look at the structure of a sheet bend (cover all of the ends, and just look at the structure of the knot itself), you'll find that the structure is exactly the same as a bowline. Now...what was that other thread about bowlines?


FLAG
By Superclimber
Feb 1, 2013

I too have become a fan of the EDK. But sometimes the long tails wrap around the running ends. I haven't had that turn into a jug fucked snag on anything yet, but I see the potential. Has anybody had this result in an actual problem?


FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Feb 1, 2013
Me

scott cooney wrote:
everything is a trade off one way or another, ... BUT the advantage of the EDK is that it natually turns outwards when pulling making it less likely to jam in a crack. ..


I hear this repeated a lot, but does it really lead to fewer jams? Has anyone repeatedly tried pulling ropes from a given stance and seen which knots hang up more?

I can't recall getting a knot stuck on rappel -- it seems like such a rare event and I have such poor memory. On the other hand, I can remember getting the rope end stuck. Seems like getting rope ends stuck is more common, and this must be independent of the knot.

If you know of a test of knot-jamming on pulling the rap lines, please post the details. Somehow, I wouldn't even be surprised if the EDK got jammed more than the fisherman's. But it must be very situation-dependent. A convincing test would have to cover a lot of different rock environments.


FLAG
 
By MTKirk
From Billings, MT
Feb 1, 2013
Me on Supercrack

Jon Nelson wrote:
I hear this repeated a lot, but does it really lead to fewer jams? Has anyone repeatedly tried pulling ropes from a given stance and seen which knots hang up more? I can't recall getting a knot stuck on rappel -- it seems like such a rare event and I have such poor memory. On the other hand, I can remember getting the rope end stuck. Seems like getting rope ends stuck is more common, and this must be independent of the knot. If you know of a test of knot-jamming on pulling the rap lines, please post the details. Somehow, I wouldn't even be surprised if the EDK got jammed more than the fisherman's. But it must be very situation-dependent. A convincing test would have to cover a lot of different rock environments.


I think you're probably right here Jon, I seriously doubt the EDK would be substantially less prone to snag behind flakes. It does however run over edges much better than the flemish bend (I used to use this when I first started climbing, thinking that it was safer). Sure; nothing is really going to snag on an edge, but with the EDK you don't get that annoying "pop" as it pulls over the edge. Your rope wears less with the EDK, with any other knot/bend the strands that circle the rope grind against the rock in the same place for the entire pull (can leave you with a frayed mantle-why I stopped using the Flemish bend).


FLAG
By Jon Nelson
Administrator
Feb 1, 2013
Me

MTKirk wrote:
..., but with the EDK you don't get that annoying "pop" as it pulls over the edge. Your rope wears less with the EDK, with any other knot/bend the strands that circle the rope grind against the rock in the same place for the entire pull (can leave you with a frayed mantle-why I stopped using the Flemish bend).


Interesting points.
I generally use the Flemish, but I'll be looking for that fraying you mentioned, and who knows, maybe will switch to the EDK too. Thanks.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>