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Double rope rapell with two people and a big weight difference!!

Original Post
photocodo mcclung · · Hendersonville, NC · Joined May 2012 · Points: 115

I usually climb with my wife and when we rap a route with two ropes we used to rap one at a time. Recently we started raping together, one on each rope. She weighs about 130lbs and I weigh about 230lbs. I wanted to describe the set up we use and see if that sounds safe and efficient to everyone here.

I start by putting her on the knot end of the anchors, so it is her then the knot, then the rap rings, then me so I cant pull the knot through. Once we are both set up on rappel I use a prusik as a back up for me. Then I use another prusik connected from her rope to my harness (below her) to close the system. So if something happened to me, my prusik would catch me and if I somehow pulled the knot through the rings the prusik connected to her rope would close the system and keep her from being pulled up. My only issue that I can think of is that we both have to take the same path down because we are connected by the prusik, which doesnt really seem like much of an issue.

What do you guys think? is there a better way to do it?

Thanks
Photocodo

Nick Votto · · CO, CT, IT · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 320

Personally I'd rather just do two independent rappels rather than going through that process, seems a little iffy...but I'm curious to see what people think, I'm no expert. Def a lot of pressure on the knot but I suppose that shouldn't matter, euro death knot or fishermans?

Dan Felix · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 35

It'd be more weight on whatever device you are using to rap, but why not extend the rapell device and do a tandem, double rope rap if you feel the need to both rap at the same time? The same weight is on the anchors and it would be less rigging (and by default because of this, also presumably safer) if you feel like you are that pressed for time....

I'm with Nick though, personally I'd just rather do 2 independent raps for anything I normally do.

saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221

The typical safety system for simulrapping is to just take a quickdraw or runner and clip one end to your belay loop, clip the other end to her belay loop. This makes it impossible for one of you to get ahead of the other and is much less complex than the arrangement you describe.

JL

H.. · · Washingtonville NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 45

or how about:

Independent rappels, stopper knots at the end.
Lighter individual on the knot side
Worried about putting the pressure on the knot itself, put a biner on a clove on the knot side of the anchor.
Then just be cognizant of the fact that the heavier person must wait until the lighter one is down to undo anything...

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

is there any real reason you are simulrapping???

are you on a route that has 10+ double raps and need to get down FAST???

consider that you can pre-rig the raps really quickly .... you can zip down first, and give her a firemans ... and she can get down really fast right after

if you need to set up all these prussics, backups, and other such ... how much time are you really saving???

unless one always needs to get down really fast on long multi raps, i dont encourage people to simul-rap ... there was a pretty bad accident that resulted in 2 deaths last year around canmore from a simul rap

if you do simul-rap its best IMO if you both use grigris ... that way you dont waste time with prussics ...and its still quite risky

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410

If you are concerned enough with safety that you are using a prussic, it is pretty silly to be simulrapping which is inherently much more dangerous. Seems like you are kinda missing the big picture.

I used to simulrap all the time when I started climbing, thinking I was pretty cool and fast. Then I finally woke up and realized how little it was saving us and how much more risk we were adding.

I don't tie knots in the end of the rope, and I rap with no prussik backup, but I haven't simulrapped in years. The first person down can give a firemans belay.

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245
David Appelhans wrote:If you are concerned enough with safety that you are using a prussic, it is pretty silly to be simulrapping which is inherently much more dangerous. Seems like you are kinda missing the big picture. I used to simulrap all the time when I started climbing, thinking I was pretty cool and fast. Then I finally woke up and realized how little it was saving us and how much more risk we were adding. I don't tie knots in the end of the rope, and I rap with no prussik backup, but I haven't simulrapped in years. The first person down can give a firemans belay.
+1
Ed Wright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2006 · Points: 285

What type devices are you using? For simulrapping you can't beat a gri-gri.

will smith · · boulder · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 35
Jon Zucco wrote: +1
+2 Hopefully we are not that pressed for time and we ALL know what we are doing.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

Friction over the top of rock or around the tree, etc. should be enough to hold in place with mass of 2 climbers on it. If needed, have the second climber stay just a few feet below the anchor for stablilty and wait out the first climber's rappel. Then the first climber must stay full weight on the rope just inches from the bottom to allow the second to make the rappel. Should work either way. Let heaviest anchor at top, and lightest can possibly find another anchor for self at the bottom of his first rappel.

photocodo mcclung · · Hendersonville, NC · Joined May 2012 · Points: 115

Sounds like I should just start raping individually unless its an emergency. Thanks for all the info guys.

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
photocodo wrote:Sounds like I should just start raping individually unless its an emergency. Thanks for all the info guys.
Double rape certainly is challenging, some people are just better off raping one at a time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPRiw9iavJk
photocodo mcclung · · Hendersonville, NC · Joined May 2012 · Points: 115

That was definitely a typo, but thanks for the corrections

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I think that most of the time the safety of conventional sequential rappelling outweighs the time savings and communication enhancement of the simul rap, but there may be times when simulrapping is called for, in spite of the its risks. I don't think there are good reasons to simulrap as a matter of general practice.

The extra prusik is a poor solution to the problem of pulling the knot through the rings and then possibly having a problem with the weight mismatch. The heavier rappeller would have to manage an autoblock on their own rappel and a prusik on the other strand, and if something bad happened, they would have to let go of the prusik on the other strand, although the natural reaction would be to grip even tighter. This sort of situation has been tested in the context of using a prusik backup above the device for an ordinary rappel, and it has been found that people are not, in general, able to release the prusik and so it never functions.

So, you have proposed a method that may very likely not work and which adds extra complication and takes extra time to implement.

The solution to mismatched weights and the potential for pulling the knot through the rings is to set up the rappel in the same way one sets up a single-strand rappel with a tag line pull cord, for example as in the following image from Bigfoot Mountain Guides:


The heavier climber raps on the left-hand strand.
Daniel Evans · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 80

Just set up a tandem rappel with 20 ft of cordalette backed up with an autoblock third hand safety.

Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441
David Appelhans wrote:If you are concerned enough with safety that you are using a prussic, it is pretty silly to be simulrapping which is inherently much more dangerous. Seems like you are kinda missing the big picture. I used to simulrap all the time when I started climbing, thinking I was pretty cool and fast. Then I finally woke up and realized how little it was saving us and how much more risk we were adding. I don't tie knots in the end of the rope, and I rap with no prussik backup, but I haven't simulrapped in years. The first person down can give a firemans belay.
Exactly.
Eli Helmuth · · Ciales, PR · Joined Aug 2001 · Points: 3,441
The solution to mismatched weights and the potential for pulling the knot through the rings is to set up the rappel in the same way one sets up a single-strand rappel with a tag line pull cord, for example as in the following image from Bigfoot Mountain Guides: The heavier climber raps on the left-hand strand.
What idiot would want to rappel only on that 7mm tag line? Listen to David's advice and stop trying to figure out how to kill yourselves.
cnadel · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 5

fwiw i think that reepschnur pic was only meant to show how you could close the system... in the OPs case it would be done with two full size ropes.

N Nelsen · · Thornton, NH · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 140

From the sounds of the system you are very aware of backups and the closing of the system. This is great to hear considering rapping is typically the most dangerous aspect of climbing. A simulrap should honestly only be used if you are rapping a multi-pitch route or are just plain in a hurry. Trying to land both of you on the ground at the same time to avoid the other person reaching the ground in a safe manner is a tricky ballet even for the most experienced climbers and rapping one at a time confidently can honestly take care of it far quicker than a simulrap anyways.

I can't tell from your description and I don't want to appear sexist in assuming you are the more experienced climber. Here is my preffered method from a guiding perspective
(YMMV of course):

The climber to descend first attaches their device (and autobloc/prussic backup!!) above the climber to descend first. As the first climber rappels, the weighted rope keeps the second climber put. Once the first descends, they are free for a multitude of tasks including a fireman's belay for the second climber as needed.

This method is nice because the more experienced climber stays in control of the second climber at all times, even during the rappel. In the end I think just one at a time is quicker, easier, and above all else safer. Rap seperate, always back up your rap, live long and prosper.

rgold: That is a great system for rappelling a full length of a single rope, but is strongly advisable not to use it in a simulrap situation due to the tiny diameter of the tag line.

David Tapke · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 6

The pic with the tag line hooked up would not be safe, that tag line isn't intended to bear weight, only pull the rope through when done, regardless of the diameter of the line shown. The knot connecting the two ropes isn't gonna work. You'd at least want a double fishermans or some other rope joining knot.

Either way, I think I personally would skip simulrapping except in emergencies, and then with backup knots on the ends and a grigri/cinch

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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