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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Murf wrote:
Another hint, the 'Z' is capitalized.

Sigh. You just tell the jokes louder after people don't laugh at them, don't you? like a child...


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By Captain Fastrousers
From Pasadena, CA
Dec 15, 2010

Ryan Williams wrote:
I also think that sometimes it is better to just tell people the way it is: "That's not a good reason to rock climb." "It sounds like you'd have more fun if you just stayed at the gym." "You don't have the skill set to be here and if you keep it up you are going to get hurt or dead."


Wow. I mean, wow. It sounds like you'd have more fun if you got a sense of perspective.

Since you think that sometimes it is better to just tell people the way it is:

This has to be one of the most pompous, self-satisfied and frankly nauseating things I have ever read on the internet. And I've been on the Supertopo forum so I'm no stranger to nauseating pomposity.

Ryan Williams wrote:
There are just too many people out there that don't get it...and it's ruining climbing.


I thought that Jack Marshall had destroyed climbing in N. America 15-20 years ago, no?

Although for me, personally, what's 'ruining climbing' is the internet; it offers far too great an audience to irritating, inadequate nonentities. (Not that I'm suggesting that you're an irritating, inadequate nonentity - that would be counter to Guideline #1 - I mean just general irritating inadequate nonentities.)


Ryan Williams wrote:
When I get the chance to tell those people how it is... I do so.


Yep, I'll just bet you do. You can probably barely hide the little frisson of excitement as you "...tell those people how it is". Do you run a climbing Meetup group, by any chance? (Either that or this is a troll, and I doff my hat to a unusually original example of the art.)

Ryan Williams wrote:
When ever I say something I seem to get the cold shoulder.


This in no way surprises me.


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By Captain Fastrousers
From Pasadena, CA
Dec 15, 2010

Ryan Kelly wrote:
Measured from the gear to the ground, or from the gear to the top of the pile of dead bodies?


You're supposed to remove the dead bodies, otherwise it counts as aid. Or as a boulder pad. In any case, those mouldering cadavers clearly represent the pussification of American climbing.

What's next? Boulder pads beneath Clean & Jerk? Head stands at the base of O'Kelleys?

This is what's ruining climbing, people.


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By Snupe
From SoCak
Dec 15, 2010

Captain Fastrousers wrote:
You're supposed to remove the dead bodies, otherwise it counts as aid. Or as a boulder pad. In any case, those mouldering cadavers clearly represent the pussification of American climbing. What's next? Boulder pads beneath Clean & Jerk? Head stands at the base of O'Kelleys? This is what's ruining climbing, people.


I'm confused. Is the Internet ruining climbing? Or using piles of dead bodies as cheatstones? Did Jack even leave anything to be ruined?


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By Captain Fastrousers
From Pasadena, CA
Dec 15, 2010

Snupe wrote:
I'm confused. Is the Internet ruining climbing?

Only for me; for others I suspect the internet is what makes the whole endeavor worthwhile.

Snupe wrote:
Did Jack even leave anything to be ruined?


Apparently he left Double Cross to still be ruined.

And Big Mo.


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By Adam Kimmerly
Dec 15, 2010

berl wrote:
yes, it is an elaborate joke


You mean there aren't really a pair of shiny new bolts to protect the start? Crap... that blows my plan for this weekend - get out to JTree early Sat before Murf made it out there Saturday morning.

berl wrote:
but I'm curious about one piece of information: exactly how far is it, really, to the first good gear on this thing?


Maybe 20' if you skip some options on the 5.4 R/X slab leading to the base of the vertical crack.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

The lil Brit has spoken!


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By twinAgent
Dec 15, 2010

Captain Fastrousers wrote:
Head stands at the base of O'Kelleys?


People are standing on heads at the base of O'Kelley's?? Now that's just obnoxious!


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

twinAgent wrote:
People are standing on heads at the base of O'Kelley's?? Now that's just obnoxious!



Ryan is one of the walking dead.

Ah me, ruining jokes left and right.


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By Captain Fastrousers
From Pasadena, CA
Dec 15, 2010

Zeke wrote:
The lil Brit has spoken!


Right on cue; Zeke heard about irritating inadequate nonentities and assumed he was part of the discussion.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Captain Fastrousers wrote:
Right on cue; Zeke heard about irritating inadequate nonentities and assumed he was part of the discussion.


What does the Wheel o' Zings say?

You're right though, I really shouldn't belittle you.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 15, 2010
My kinda simian

Zeke wrote:
Ryan is one of the walking dead. Ah me, ruining jokes left and right.



These people are ruining climbing.


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By duh
Dec 15, 2010

Snupe wrote:
Did Jack even leave anything to be ruined?



He ruined this beautiful splitter
He ruined this beautiful splitter


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By Choss Chasin'
From Torrance, CA
Dec 15, 2010
Black Mountain

Bryan Gohn wrote:
Chopping a bolt does not alter or damage the rock, it's just the removal of hardware that was installed in the rock. The unaesthetic hole that remains afterward was drilled by the bolter, not the chopper. Retrobolters and defenders of retrobolters can try to spin it any way they want, but just because someone can't magically make the rock new again after chopping a bolt, doesn't change the fact that it was the bolter who did the damage.


Hey Bryan if your going to quote me at least keep it in context. I don't defend retrobolters nor do I retrobolt myself. What I said was that I hate seeing the aftermath of a bolt war. Holes everywhere and so on and so forth. What I was asking is that choppers think twice before they chop; the same as bolters should think twice before they bolt.

P.S. This entire thread is out of control at this point. After skimming through it I feel like I'm back in elementary school.


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By toddgordon
From Joshua Tree, California
Dec 15, 2010

Beer, bolts, and babes;......does that help any? (Keep it simple, my friends...keep it simple....)...........Nice beautiful sunny day, sweetheart by your side, an 18 pack of cheap beer, and a piece of rock with a bunch of Petzel hangers winkin' at ya......c'mon.......you know you love it.......admit it.....(Somebody please put that anchor back on the top of Colorado Crack.......it takes FOREVER to get back to the beers now.......)


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By J.J
Dec 15, 2010

toddgordon wrote:
Beer, bolts, and babes;......does that help any? (Keep it simple, my friends...keep it simple....)...........Nice beautiful sunny day, sweetheart by your side, an 18 pack of cheap beer, and a piece of rock with a bunch of Petzel hangers winkin' at ya......c'mon.......you know you love it.......admit it.....(Somebody please put that anchor back on the top of Colorado Crack.......it takes FOREVER to get back to the beers now.......)

You can't argue with that...


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By Murf
Dec 16, 2010

JJ Brunner wrote:
You can't argue with that...

I've walked of CC crack with a quart of beer in my hand and didn't spill a drop. Can't do that on rap can you?

No PUSSIFICATION!!


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By J.J
Dec 16, 2010

Murf wrote:
I've walked of CC crack with a quart of beer in my hand and didn't spill a drop. Can't do that on rap can you? No PUSSIFICATION!!

But if for some horrible reason you don't have beer in the first place, he's saying you'll want to get to it ASAP.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 16, 2010
El Chorro

Muff wrote:
Ryan, I think you have a very good mindset in regards to this situation. I don't want this to be lengthy but here's how I view the history of climbing and modern day climbers in a nutshell: The original climbers were nothing short of fearless men and women who had the mental and physical strength of superhumans. These individuals were well aware of the dangers of climbing and in a lot of cases made their own climbing gear. They knew damn well what 5.7 trad felt like and if you have ever climbed places like Tahquitz you know that the open book is the stoutest 5.9 on the planet making some 5.10s and 5.11s look like child's play. Ok there's the past. Here is the present. Today we have a large community of climbers both seasoned and new to the game. These climbers are typically climbing hard sport as they were trained in the gym and have now made an awkward transition into climbing. They are like growing puppies or adolescent children who are not fully aware of their bodies. They have the power of a v10 boulderer or a 5.12 sport climber but do not have the mental game to keep it together above sketchy gear. I am a culprit of this as I am very early in my career but was fortunate enough to survive my early trad climbing days when I got myself in over my head. Its hard for new climbers to enter the arena and see people free solo something that is hard for them. When the media portrays ultra strong climbers who make it look easy, these new climbers want a piece of that pie. So to make it simple. Newer climbers (myself included) are not humble and are not super sensible of the dangers of climbing. Try to put yourself in their shoes. The right decision in my mind is NOT TO BOLT Double Cross and to be honest there really isn't any solution to this issue unless we change the fundamentals of climbing and our approach to it. INSTILL FEAR MY FRIENDs! It's the only way to get people to slow down and maybe consider learning things on a slower curve.


I think you worded that pretty well and we seem to agree on a lot of things. But it wasn't so long ago (I'm 27) that I was also a new climber and there are also 5.9's here(and .8's and .7's) that scare the shit out of good climbers. You'd think that learning in an old school area (like J Tree and many other areas in CA) would cause people to take things more seriously. It's not uncommon for climbers in NC to lead run out 5.10's after less than a year of climbing. Maybe it's because we learn to climb outside? Maybe it's because we don't have sport climbing here? Who knows... but I like it :)


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 16, 2010
El Chorro

Murf wrote:
In a lot of cases they were stoned teenagers, who like most teenagers were clueless.


Maybe so but they still did things that 99% of us won't do (myself included).

And I've just realized that there is a "Murf" AND a "Muff" in this convo... I'm three strong drinks in and I have to drive through an ice storm tomorrow to pick up my sister so I'm going to sleep!


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2010
My kinda simian

Joe Lee wrote:
Double Cross, like its Eldo cousin Bastille Crack, are booby traps for the noob. They lure the naive climber with their 5.7 grade, laughable approach, and famous names. But they both demand skill at placing gear and jamming near the star to make them safe.


For posterity.


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 16, 2010
Russ

JDF News Alert:
Currently raining in Josh, but there is action on Double Cross so I am told.


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By Murf
Dec 16, 2010

Choss Chasin' wrote:
Hey Bryan if your going to quote me at least keep it in context. I don't defend retrobolters nor do I retrobolt myself. What I said was that I hate seeing the aftermath of a bolt war. Holes everywhere and so on and so forth. What I was asking is that choppers think twice before they chop; the same as bolters should think twice before they bolt. P.S. This entire thread is out of control at this point. After skimming through it I feel like I'm back in elementary school.


Choppers don't have to think, just chop. Pussy retro-bolters need to back off and put down the drill.


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By Tim Hadfield
From Steamboat Springs, Co
Dec 16, 2010
Easy stuff at Rifle

Seems like a lot of large egos hard at work here, something that has always baffled me about parts of the climbing community. Just because I can climb at a certain difficulty and comfort level, it doesn't mean that everyone climbing after me HAS to climb like me. Now having said that, I also know that there are plenty of climbers that climb harder and bolder than I do. That doesn't give them an excuse to impose their ego on me, ESPECIALLY ON OUR PUBLIC LANDS! Seems like a lot of people posting here have forgotten the key word: PUBLIC. When a first ascent party wants to make a route safer for the climber at that climbs' grade, what's the problem? Who says you have to clip bolts when they are there. The banter here is incredibly silly on this subject. I might understand the many complaints if this was a route on private property....


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 16, 2010
My kinda simian

Nice job Tim, I was worried this thread was dying out. Your post should ensure this goes for another 4 or 5 pages at least.


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