Double Cross Discussion
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This post was originally a comment in Double Cross
Get this... YEsterday, I was told by one of our very own Rangers, that there have been up to five deaths per year on Doule Cross... When I tried to explain that those figures were simply not true, she/he stated that due to being a "Ranger" for the NPS, that I did not know what I was talking about. Well it got me thinking... Is it even possible that I am wrong??? I read Randys info from 2004 and see that nowhere does it state there have been ........ so on and so on... So I ask once more, for total clarification (I am pretty sure I already know the answer), what are the stats on Double Cross??? I was also "TOLD" that Double Cross has had more deaths/accidents than any other route in the USA... And yes, I was told by the same NPS Jtree ranger... Chris, Randy anyone???...HELP!!!... |
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As the the original post queries....how many deaths does the route have?? any good guestimates or approximation's? |
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how about when you enter the park you have to sign something acknowledging the fact that Josh 5.7 isn't the same as your gym's 5.7? |
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You old timers have more of a say than I do. But, I see the basic problem here being that newbies believe that all climbs in a guidebook will be well-protected and "safe." Sure, adding a bolt on the slab will keep some climbers from decking but that does not address the basic problem. Better protection will continue the myth that all climbs in a book are "safe," thus setting them up for failure in the future. |
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Eric D wrote:...But, I see the basic problem here being that newbies believe that all climbs in a guidebook will be well-protected and "safe."No, the problem is that Double Cross is well-protected and safe, but people get hurt anyways. The slab is easy and not even that tall, and before the crux is a comfortable stance with enough bomber gear to hang a SUV off of. I remember a couple years ago I had just learned how to place gear over the summer up in Yosemite and I was all ready for my first season of trad climbing in Joshua Tree. I wanted to do Double Cross but it had that infamous reputation, and I had probably only a dozen trad leads under my belt. Dogleg, the 5.8 just to the left ended up being my first trad lead in Josh. When I finally did DC a few weekends later I was baffled, it's not only easier than Dogleg, but the gear is more straightforward too. But I do agree that if it's not Double Cross that gets them, it's just going to be something else. Placing a bolt at the crux will probably only increase the number of accidents on less popular campground moderates like Buissonier's and The Flake. So I guess the real problem is that people who don't know to handjam and don't know how to place gear are attempting to do so, on lead. Double Cross just happens to be the first climb they get in line for. |
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The bottom line here, as has been stated in fits and starts above, is this: |
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the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!... |
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Locker wrote:the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!... PLEASE don't CHOP them!!!...It's about time! I've bailed from the route multiple times now due to inadequate protection at the start. Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one. |
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Adam Kimmerly wrote: It's about time! I've bailed from the route multiple times now due to inadequate protection at the start. Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.I think I just vomited in my mouth a little bit. It has been established that this route is not dangerous, it is just gangbanged by gummbies all day long. The law of large numbers tells us that eventually someone is going to make a mistake and get hurt. Place good gear and keep two pieces between you and the hospital, enough said. |
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Jesse Davidson wrote:how about when you enter the park you have to sign something acknowledging the fact that Josh 5.7 isn't the same as your gym's 5.7?Or any 5.7 anywhere else for that matter! I feel as long as there is a warning that there are a high number of accidents on Double Cross, that would give the inexperienced leader a chance to re-think the idea of leading it. Something like Inexperience+Double Cross+Gravity=BAD |
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You really shouldn't have posted this on here Locker. Murf has an account here, so I'd assume he reads it on occasion. Word on the slabs is that he's the one that chopped the Big Moe anchors. He's probably headed out to DC right now. |
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Alex Whitman wrote: I ride the bus. With a coexist tattoo.With inks made from Elderberry and Beetroot? |
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I don't care either way about double cross re-bolting I haven't led it yet and probably won't for a while cause it is always gangbanged. However what really pisses me off are these bolt chopping wars. I totally agree that when natural protection is available bolts should not be placed. What I despise seeing atop and on climbs are the remnants of these bolt wars. Choppers get all pissed that some one put a bolt somewhere and they go out and remove said bolt. Next week it gets re-bolted. Week after chopped again. Now I have to look at your ugly ass ethics debate etched forever into what was once a beautiful piece of rock. You choppers are doing just as much damage to the rock as the guy putting in bolts. Unless your painstakingly gluing over and covering the old bolt with perfectly matching rock dust think REAL HARD before you chop something. Having ethics is nice but thinking that your removing an eyesore by creating another is downright foolish. |
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caughtinside wrote: The rock doesn't care if it has bolts or not you dirty idiot hippy! True. But with the flatirons and eldo in your backyard you should realize that bolts can have impact on access. |
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Phil Lauffen wrote: True. But with the flatirons and eldo in your backyard you should realize that bolts can have impact on access.caughtinside never climbs outside the gym. He works too much. |
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OK, so I'm confused. Everyone jumps up and down and screams and yells about how the FA has the right, until the end of time, to determine the style of the route and how many, if any, bolts are used. Until... a member of the FA party comes on here an supports adding a bolt or two. THEN...WELL, it's community standards that are important, or "climbing is dangerous", or (my personal favorite) the FA wasn't the ***REAL*** FA (who conveniently will never be known), or some other BS. |
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What is rock climbing. |
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Choss Chasin' wrote:I don't care either way about double cross re-bolting I haven't led it yet and probably won't for a while cause it is always gangbanged. However what really pisses me off are these bolt chopping wars. I totally agree that when natural protection is available bolts should not be placed. What I despise seeing atop and on climbs are the remnants of these bolt wars. Choppers get all pissed that some one put a bolt somewhere and they go out and remove said bolt. Next week it gets re-bolted. Week after chopped again. Now I have to look at your ugly ass ethics debate etched forever into what was once a beautiful piece of rock. You choppers are doing just as much damage to the rock as the guy putting in bolts. Unless your painstakingly gluing over and covering the old bolt with perfectly matching rock dust think REAL HARD before you chop something. Having ethics is nice but thinking that your removing an eyesore by creating another is downright foolish.Well said! I'd clip the bolt if it were there, but I'd prefer it not be. If you're that opposed to the bolt then don't clip it and express your thoughts that future routes shouldn't be bolted the same way. Chopping is not the answer, at least on this popular route. That being said, I can't wait to lead Double Cross! I followed DC and Dog Leg last time I was there and can't wait to lead them! Double Cross won't be a problem, Dog Leg will be tough! |
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Locker wrote:the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!... PLEASE don't CHOP them!!!...Long live Jeff Batten! |
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Me n' my sub Ryan Kelly will be pulling any bolts on DC this weekend. If you got a problem with this, meet me Saturday morning early, before the queue forms. Also, my pin rack is a little bare after my Zodiac solo, and the LA's on Sexy Grammma are clean. Consider yourself warned! |
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Russ Walling wrote:I think there was a carryout/rescue on Double Cross again today! Somebody, please stop the madness!That strikes me as a a simple but important argument. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole debate. Hell, I led it on nuts and hexes when I was 16 and had been climbing a year and a half. But maybe we shouldn't be posturing over symbolism or treating Double Cross as a metaphor for the future of all of climbing. Maybe we should recognize it's a uniquely aesthetic, accessible, popular climb that keeps claiming bones and blood. Maybe we can stand down from raging if someone acts to make it safer. The debate can simmer about the rest of the rockscape, but tombstones don't need to pile up for a trade testpiece one minute from a Southern California parking lot. |