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Double Cross Discussion
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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Dec 23, 2010
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, high Sierras.

Snupe wrote:
I can come up with a long list of routes in the park where they got it wrong, some more egregious than others. Casual: last bolt should be moved one move earlier Stick to What: put a bolt between current bolts 1 and 2 The Flake: bolt to protect chimney moves Double Cross: see above discussion RFYL: bolt to protect entry moves to prevent ankle-breaker fall Championship Wrestling: 3 or 4 bolts so I don't have to lug my #6 out there Murf's forehead: self-explanatory etc.


Here's my idea. Why don't you simply not climb these routes? There are what, 2000 other routes to pick from in JTree? Since some people like these routes the way that they are, how about leaving them as- is for that group? And for those that don't like them, they can climb something else. That way, everybody gets to climb the kind of route that they are looking for.

It blows me away how some people think that every route should be in one particular style. Let's allow different kinds of routes to exist for different kinds of climbers.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 23, 2010

Fat Dad wrote:
Go back to the gym and stroke your plastic.


Since I live much closer to the Park (a few miles) than to any climbing gym, how about I go solo your projects instead?


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By Colin Brochard
From San Francisco
Dec 25, 2010

14 pages about whether or not to bolt a 5.7/8 CRACK?? at JOSH?? I mean i loove to sportclimb and I'm all for safety, but last I recall this was a pretty secure route following a very prominant CRACK the whole way up. Plain and simple, them there bolts will be chopped, again and again. So don't mar the rock with yo sillyness and let people climb at their own risk like they do every friggin day, all over the world. say no to bolted cracks


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By toddgordon
From Joshua Tree, California
Dec 25, 2010

Merry Christmas to all.....bolt placers and bolt choppers! Joy this holiday to you all and your families.


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By Adam Stackhouse
Administrator
Dec 25, 2010
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013

toddgordon wrote:
Merry Christmas to all.....bolt placers and bolt choppers! Joy this holiday to you all and your families.



Thanks TG. Merry Christmas


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Dec 25, 2010
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Alex Whitman wrote:
Nope. Sorry.


spoken like a typical 20 something who has not enough experience in life to balance out hormones. Obviously not all routes have to be G rated, but maybe you should really think about what it would mean if a GF or other loved one cratered and smashed their skull open and what that loss of a life means in comparison to somebody's macho ascent.

By the way, I have no opinion about Double Cross, as I have never even seen it, but rather some peoples imbalanced opinion of the value of lives over "running it out"


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By Kent Pease
From Littleton, Colorado
Dec 25, 2010

aaron hope wrote:
OK - here's a thought. Because the FA, Woody, has stated he is OK with a bolt but will not place one himself (see the first page thread). Here's a course of action: If someone wants a bolt, place one. If someone else doesn't like the bolt, chop it. Then, if you still want a bolt, replace it. Then, if you still don't like it, chop it. Then, if you still want a bolt, replace it... With enough iterations, the community will come to a natural state of equilibrium with either the bolt in, or out, depending on which side is more adamant. For example, if there are more people out there replacing than chopping, then the bolt will persevere until generations pass and the climb has reached a new accepted state. This is kind of how I've seen the bolt issue work itself out in other areas. Just, please, keep the violence contained to within this forum.


Good point Aaron.

Better yet let’s view the bolt in terms of quantum mechanics where it is simultaneously in two states of “existing” and “not existing”. Furthermore, the probability for each state would be based on the percentages of climbers advocating each side of the debate. Like Schrödinger’s cat the reality won’t be determined until you try to clip it, or not. That should satisfy everyone, or nobody.


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Dec 25, 2010
Bucky

Kent Pease wrote:
Good point Aaron. Better yet let’s view the bolt in terms of quantum mechanics where it is simultaneously in two states of “existing” and “not existing”. Furthermore, the probability for each state would be based on the percentages of climbers advocating each side of the debate. Like Schrödinger’s cat the reality won’t be determined until you try to clip it, or not. That should satisfy everyone, or nobody.


Funny.
But you can't actually clip it Kent, because by measuring it, you are tainting the result.


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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Dec 25, 2010
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.

J. Albers wrote:
Funny. But you can't actually clip it Kent, because by measuring it, you are tainting the result.

Don't measure it--clip it with your eyes closed.


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By Dylan Colon
From Eugene, OR
Dec 26, 2010
Me fishing for gear on an onsight of Mung.  Photo by Gokul Gopal.

Then keep climbing higher without knowing whether you clipped a bolt or thin air. It's the only way.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Jan 6, 2011
My kinda simian

Bump.


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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Jan 6, 2011
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.

Ryan Kelly wrote:
Bump.

There's no bump needed. You do, I'll chop it.


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By Don Mares
Jan 6, 2011
profile picture avitard.

Whoa, shit, it a good thing I saw this. I was out there waiting in line a few days ago and this Asian looking guy with some tattoos shows up holding one of the big fricken cordless drills, you now those ones that sometimes you see with a handle off to the side. I could hear the dude talking with his buddy, and the Asian guy sounded like he should have been surfing. Well I didn't make out much of what they were saying other than that surfer-asian-dude's buddy didn't want to wait until the line cleared up, so they left.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Jan 6, 2011
My kinda simian

Don Mares wrote:
Whoa, shit, it a good thing I saw this. I was out there waiting in line a few days ago and this Asian looking guy with some tattoos shows up holding one of the big fricken cordless drills, you now those ones that sometimes you see with a handle off to the side. I could hear the dude talking with his buddy, and the Asian guy sounded like he should have been surfing. Well I didn't make out much of what they were saying other than that surfer-asian-dude's buddy didn't want to wait until the line cleared up, so they left.


Tattoos, surfer slang, and bolts with reckless abandon. Was this your Asian?


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By Don Mares
Jan 7, 2011
profile picture avitard.

Ryan Kelly wrote:
Tattoos, surfer slang, and bolts with reckless abandon. Was this your Asian?



Looks like it could be him, I didn't get a good look at the tattoo, but it's in the right spot. But the guy in the picture looks stronger and I'd say thinner, than this guy did.


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By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Jan 7, 2011

Why would anyone be carrying around a powerdrill as a standard part of their Josh rack?


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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Jan 7, 2011

dhayan wrote:
i thought power drills were illegal in national parks


You have to wait for the rare 'Bolter's Moon'


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By Jesse Davidson
From san diego, ca
Jan 7, 2011
n cascades <br />

how about instead of adding bolts, we add a sign? something like

"Dear aspiring climber, this route 'Double Cross 5.7' is responsible for numerous injuries and deaths every year. This climb requires adequate skills and knowledge of placing protection while jamming. The rating was established in a time of stouter ratings and may feel much harder. If you are at all unsure of your capabilities, think of your family and come back another time. Consider hiring a professional guide. Happy climbing!"


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By Choss Chasin'
From Torrance, CA
Jan 7, 2011
Black Mountain

I'll chop the sign!


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By Tim McCabe
Jan 8, 2011

How about a label on climbing gear that says climbing is dangerous. Oh wait never mind.


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By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Jan 10, 2011

Tim McCabe wrote:
How about a label on climbing gear that says climbing is dangerous. Oh wait never mind.

Not if you bolt everything into submission.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Jan 10, 2011
My kinda simian

Fat Dad wrote:
Not if you bolt everything into submission.


So, now you're pro-bolt?


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By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Jan 10, 2011

Ryan Kelly wrote:
So, now you're pro-bolt?

I guess I should have inserted a 'sarcasm' emoticon.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Jan 10, 2011
My kinda simian

Fat Dad wrote:
I guess I should have inserted a 'sarcasm' emoticon.


AH HA!


Busted.


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By Francisco Di Poi
From Boulder, CO
Feb 17, 2011

ru ro...heading to Jtree in two weeks. Let's see if i'll sac up and try to lead it.....by the way I might need a belay so let me know if you would like to join me in my efforts


FLAG


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