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Development of old undocumented front range crag

Original Post
Alan Prehmus · · littleton, co · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 1,575

I'd like some advice on if to develop routes on an 'prehistoric' area I found recently. The issue is that some one else was there first. There was a bolt and ropes on several trees for top rope anchors. The ropes have been there so long that they have significant moss & lichen growing on them. I think they have been untouched for at least 20 years. I have to assume that most of the wall was climbed.

The area is in Jeffco open space and is easily accessible. Its rounded and slabby but not so monolithic as the S. Platte. Its north facing, and currently has a coat of moss & lichen, but seems to have very little loose rock. The majority of the possible routes are half rope length & probably 5.9 or less.

If someone claims the area, and wants it to stay TR, I'll go along with that wish.
If no one can identify FA's, what do folks think of my putting in bolted routes?

The top rope anchors have been there a while.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I think you should delete this thread before it's too late, then do a good job bolting it.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

It's not exactly my local area and I'm new enough to climbing that I don't fully understand the ethics behind crag development. But having said that, if it's an easily accessible and abandoned crag that would be ideal grades for beginners to learn on, and you're willing to put the time in, I think it's a great idea.

Hopefully you'll get some feedback from people with more historical knowledge.

Edited: In fact, although I know nothing about bolting routes, if you decide to do it and want a hand for a day or two, hit me up. I'd be happy to help and learn a little something.

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Mark E Dixon wrote:I think you should delete this thread before it's too late, then do a good job bolting it.
The love for a personal zone runs deep.
Put in two or three TR anchors 1st. Replacing the ropes, so you are upgrading
but leave the old tat in place.
If the bolts stay, good, tell no one that you have done anything - I mean not any one but you and the people you go there with swear them to silence .

Try to talk to local climbing shop 'Mavens' some one knows something. Fixed pin publishing,
I think it was Jason Haas? I'm reaching here . . .Marc or Stuart Ruckman?
I don't know who but - Guide book authors. Are the best place to start.
Since you want the in put.
Check with older guide services. And make it clear that it is a safer and a better thing to have a modern bolted easy area. That sort of zone needs bolts to bring down crowding,ect.
Ecologically, be as low impact as possible to start. Wait a long time - a year, before full on development.

Ropes can age very fast out in the open.

Or

as my quoting Mark E Dixon was meant to highlight do what you want and do not talk about it

Edit: how do you put two quotes in one post? Ho wait that's how

Return to point out the responsible party should have stripped that crap.
But it is also important to point out that while today's climbers need only shiny new gear.
DO NOT USE that old rope do not jump on me for saying this;
The picture shows still ROUND, still serviceable rope.
Do not use it, again do not use any old single point anchor!
but it shows the old school ways to be bad,
an example to support the Upgrades.
Are they all Non-redundant single point ? Throw up more pics.
the strength of the sheath looks to have -Not- been compromised.
I am not able to tell from a picture, but the times have changed and
We all make our own minds up based on the real time needs and examples
of that kind are a teaching moment.
It would be hard to argue with anyone if they can go kick that poor strand of cord and say you go on that and stay off my modern anchor.
Kevin Pula · · Denver · Joined May 2012 · Points: 20
Michael Schneider wrote: The love for a personal zone runs deep. Put in two or three TR anchors 1st. Replacing the ropes, so you are upgrading but leave the old tat in place.
Something tells me that if I went up to CZ and hung some rotten rope anchors it wouldn't be look highly upon, why honor this tat? Must not have loved the personal zone too much for it to be abandoned long enough for the ropes to look like that.

I just think its funny how holistic everyone gets about FAs and original ethic. Originally no one climbed there, what if the first hiker didn't want anyone to touch the rock?

Its one thing to go changing a high traffic crag but it says something about the climbing community that the OP might feel like they would get grief for developing a place like this.

I see people getting bent out of shape all the time on these forums for rapping on and slinging trees. Just because these are old ropes we should accept it?

Seems bunk.
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

Or

as my quoting Mark E Dixon was meant to highlight do what you want and do not talk about it

Edit: S price I have always loved that rain drop!

I Return to point out the responsible party should have stripped that crap.

But it is also important to point out that while today's climbers need only shiny new gear.

DO NOT USE that old rope do not jump on me for saying this;

The picture shows still ROUND, still serviceable rope.

Do not use it, again do not use any old single point anchor!

but it shows the old school ways to be bad,

an example to support the Upgrades.

Are they all Non-redundant single point ?

Throw up more pics.

the strength of the sheath looks to have -Not- been compromised.

I am not able to tell from a picture, - but - the times have changed and
We all make our own minds up based on the real time needs - examples lnsitue, onsite,
of that kind are a teaching moment.
It would be hard to argue with anyone if they can go kick that poor strand of cord and say you go on that and stay off my modern anchor.
EDIT POST

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590

If you are concerned enough to ask here, you'd do yourself a service to research the history of the crag. That tat isn't junk, merely a different style from a different generation. We haven't always used Fixe hard wear. Updating anchors is a Kosher thing, so are toprope first ascents. Those anchors, however don't appear to be TR anchors-- who leaves a permanent TR anchor? They could be lower offs or part of an abandoned cleaning effort.

Scrubbing the face could provide a good deal of insight. You could discover hidden gear placements or old pitons. If you were to bolt these routes they'll be in the public eye and your work will be scrutinized (bolts subject to removal). Best to do due diligence first. If you exert a reasonable effort in doing so and discover nothing, then the routes are fair game with one caveat: you won't have climbed first ascents and should document your climbs as first recorded ascents.

The previous suggestion of contacting guidebook authors is a good one, as well as local, more established climbing schools. Hell, if you've stumbled across an easily accessible moderate crag, a school might even provide you some gear. Older members of the climbing community could be a good resource too.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10

so much pontificating.

Ask around like you are doing. If no one knows anything then go for it.

If you need help let me know. i'd be glad to help

And just because someone left a few pieces of tat, doesn't mean they own the cliff...

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

Playing hide and seek isn't likely to get you the whole truth. Public disclosure of where this is will more likely get you the real info on it's history. Or your case may end up like this: mountainproject.com/v/new-s…

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

I found a similar, old area that doesn't look to be all that good rock in Cheyenne Canyon. I'll ask some locals about it, and will probably get some info. It has bolts but all of the hangers were removed save one that looks like the bolt is too rusted to remove the nut. Places like this are usually abandoned because, well, they suck. So order one is to clean it up and climb it some and see if this is the case.

If you still find it worthy of your time, do what you want with it. The former custodians no longer visit it, so it's really up to you what you do there. I see no reason not to bolt toprope lines for leading if you feel they are worthy.

England · · Colorado Springs · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 270
Stich wrote:I found a similar, old area that doesn't look to be all that good rock in Cheyenne Canyon. y.
Nothing to see here, keep moving on.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

You should post up about that rope in lost and found.
Maybe there's a six pack in it for you.

Moritz B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 185

Or at least good karma! lol

evan h · · Longmont, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 360

Here's my $0.02. Let's think about the worthiness of these potential development ideas. I don't find that we're lacking in moderates on the front range, so I'm wondering if developing a crag like this will really hold any value. Remember, there are already more sketchy bolts than funding for replacement as is, and this will just be another crag needing upgrades on down the road (sooner or later depending on your hardware choice).

Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86
evan h wrote:Here's my $0.02. Let's think about the worthiness of these potential development ideas. I don't find that we're lacking in moderates on the front range, so I'm wondering if developing a crag like this will really hold any value. Remember, there are already more sketchy bolts than funding for replacement as is, and this will just be another crag needing upgrades on down the road (sooner or later depending on your hardware choice).
Although I get what you are saying apparently you don't go to the moderate crags in the summer. 5.9 and below sport is very lacking based on the amount of people who climb that level and you see at the crags with those grades (Canal Zone, Highwire, East Colfax being the most obivous).
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Michael Schneider wrote: Try to talk to local climbing shop 'Mavens' some one knows something. Fixed pin publishing, I think it was Jeremy Hass? I'm reaching here . . .Marc or Stuart Ruckman? I don't know who but - Guide book authors. Are the best place to start.
You mean Jason Haas if you are talkin' Fixed Pin, but that's the publisher (S. Platte or Clear Creek), not the author. He could get you in touch with the author though.
Mike Morin (former climbing Ranger for Jeffco) is also a good contact.
But yeah, guidebook folks have generally done a good job with reseach and would know who the 'usual suspects' are.

With regards to the OP:
Best of luck in your quest. Thanks for asking around before acting quickly. and just FYI - lichen/moss can grow on something in just a few years. I have been surprised by this in the past. It might not be as old as you think.
evan h · · Longmont, CO · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 360
Parker Wrozek wrote: Although I get what you are saying apparently you don't go to the moderate crags in the summer. 5.9 and below sport is very lacking based on the amount of people who climb that level and you see at the crags with those grades (Canal Zone, Highwire, East Colfax being the most obivous).
You're right! I definitely avoid those crags :)

Parker, I also see your point, although the problem of crowds isn't limited to the crags you mentioned. Try rolling into Anarchy or Primo walls (12s and 13s) in prime conditions and you'll see hoards of folks there as well. Or Rifle in the summer. So I'll rephrase my original point: If this crag fills a void and would be worthy enough to spread the masses (and if it's indeed kosher to bolt here), then by all means develop it! But if it was abandoned because it's a turd, then it will probably be abandoned again.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

I'd just start drilling. Start with some TR points, clean up a few lines and develop a lead friendly bolting plan for the best line you can find. I might worry about offending the FA, if any of the lines we're clean and getting even light traffic. Looks pretty dormant from my perspective. In that time, you should cross paths with other users, if they exist.

IMO, when anyone puts in a TR anchor, the intent is to rap bolt that line. Climbing it first to access it's viability, so as to not waste time and money on a mediocre route.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Just above me someone posted that it might not be worth it in regards to grade. I don't think grade is the issue. It might not be worth it in regards to quality though. It's not like all the climbers left the front range 20 years ago so it just got forgotten.

Think about it for a minute. This is the front range. Every pebble has been looked over and contains at least two alternate finishes. If this place has been abandoned, there is likely a reason.

People don't forget about good areas.

It's lacking in one or more of these qualities.

-Accessibility
-Rock quality
-Route quality
-Freedom to actually climb there

Someone further upthread mentioned that you should be cautious about bolting it. This is so fucking stupid but true. As of right now, nobody cares about this place and hasn't in a long time or ever. If you bolt it, the first ascentionist will freak the fuck out and demand justice. Of course he's 300lbs, hasn't climbed in 20 years, and hasn't actually thought about that cliff in 19. John Long will probably call you a vandal. Panties will twist, oh yes, they will twist.

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:John Long will probably call you a vandal. Panties will twist, oh yes, they will twist.
GOLDEN!!!! Well said!
Phil Lauffen · · Innsbruck, AT · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 3,098

You may as well just publicly announce the location on this thread. Worst case you'll lose some 5.9 FAs on chossy rock to some nut with a bolt gun and a lot of time.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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