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Denver -Clear Creek Canyon -Where'd the pipe go???
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By Mark McConnell
Jan 7, 2009
crap! not again

Where'd the ice go... over the past three years or so we've had out of the ordinary ice forming up at the upper ice flow...(up-stream of the bridge AKA mickey's big mouth - in the C.M.Burns Book)... I don't think it is entirely weather related... the pipe that used to farm the upper flow was partly responsible for the lower flow forming up so large. It's gone now!!! everything is still climbable, but not nearly as fun as it used to be... Does anyone know where, or more accurately who is responsible for the installation or de-installation of the farmed ice?

More ice please!
mark


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By Joshua Darnell
From Westminster, Colorado
Jan 7, 2009

Mark McConnell wrote:
Where'd the ice go... over the past three years or so we've had out of the ordinary ice forming up at the upper ice flow...(up-stream of the bridge AKA mickey's big mouth - in the C.M.Burns Book)... I don't think it is entirely weather related... the pipe that used to farm the upper flow was partly responsible for the lower flow forming up so large. It's gone now!!! everything is still climbable, but not nearly as fun as it used to be... Does anyone know where, or more accurately who is responsible for the installation or de-installation of the farmed ice? More ice please! mark

I'm not sure where the pipes and sandbags went. I haven't been up there this season, but the installer was just as surprised as you. He was up there last week and told me all the sandbags and pipes had been removed. I'm not sure why they were taken out though as they were no impact to the area.


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By Buff Johnson
Jan 7, 2009
smiley face

sorry dudes, no farmed ice in the triple c


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Jan 7, 2009
How I Send

What will it take to restore farmed conditions? I am willing to donate my free time for some icy enjoyment.


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By Legs Magillicutty
From Littleton
Jan 7, 2009
Function over fashion.  My newest pair of climbing shoes.

Me too.


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By Evan S
From Erie, CO
Jan 7, 2009
Me, of course

The authorities are extremely against any sort of farming in CCC or BC, they consider it a hazard having people parking in the canyons and the spectacle climbers create for passing motorists. This is of course absolutely ridiculous because far more people park and climb rock in these places in the summer, but that is their official stance. Don't expect any farming efforts to be very fruitful, but good luck and I hope they are.


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By Joshua Darnell
From Westminster, Colorado
Jan 7, 2009

It would be nice if someone replaced the pipes it would make everything there a lot better. Some money and a BUNCH of effort was invested to get everything setup. I also hope that somebody will get things back into shape, although probably not by the same group who put it up threes seasons ago.


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By kirra
Jan 7, 2009

Mark Nelson wrote:
sorry dudes, no farmed ice in the triple c

whatup mark..?? was there a pipe, wher'd it go... if there was one why is it no longer there.?

*go-2-guy* for the ice-community in C3 we need details man..!!!!!!
{{clammering tools & shouting mob forming "We want Ice..We want Ice"}}


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By Buff Johnson
Jan 7, 2009
smiley face

okay -- step back, everyone.

Evan, that is total bullshit.

After reviewing the use of the canyon, legal requirements for water course, & also natural resource conservation; 5 agencies as well as 3-4 internal OS departments all offered their input in the Guidelines for climbing in Jeffco.

Jeffco is in a bad position to allow farming. This was all clearly spelled out in their public document, which had 2 public comment periods, one of which was extended for about 2-3 months to allow for more comment and review of those comments.

Coming up now and saying that you don't know what is going on or why is totally & intentionally ignorant. i know damn well the farmers don't care, fine; face the consequences of it, I don't care. it's been reviewed & voted on. there isn't much else to say about it. go to the san juans, vail, the park, or cody like everyone else and get some real ice in.


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By kirra
Jan 7, 2009

thanks mark, I knew I could count on you (:


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By Buff Johnson
Jan 7, 2009
smiley face

no problem

& don't think there weren't some of us disputing the idea of prohibiting farming at the table either; the law is pretty much set against it when it comes to water course & water rights in this area.


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By Joshua Darnell
From Westminster, Colorado
Jan 7, 2009

Mark, how did you come to the conclusion that the farmers didn't care?


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Jan 7, 2009
Lone goat..

"Where'd the pipe go"? There is a drilled rock pipe that smokes GREAT right past the 3rd tunnel and up the hill to the North, right under the climb "Head like a Hole" 12d.......wait, are we talking about farmed ice?


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Jan 7, 2009
How I Send

Mark,
Thanks for bringing me up to speed. As a relative new comer to CO, I didn't know the history/legal precedents. I am just lazy and love convenient ice.

Doug


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By JeffCoOpenSpaceRanger
From Golden, CO
Jan 7, 2009

The ice farming that was going on west of Lil' Eiger in Clear Creek Canyon was previously unknown to us until this year. We stumbled upon the equipment and subsequently removed it earlier this fall. Ice Farming is prohibited and is discussed in the Jefferson County Climbing Management Guide. The construction of these diversion structures on Open Space lands falls under Unlawful Improvements and Abandoned Property in the J.C.O.S. Rules and Regulations.

I hope that this information is useful, I'm not here to debate J.C.O.S. policies or actions. I simply want to make sure that good information is getting out to the climbing community regarding the management of climbing areas on J.C.O.S. lands.

Thanks,

Ranger Mike

Edit: Mark you beat me to it. Thanks.


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By Evan S
From Erie, CO
Jan 7, 2009
Me, of course

Alright little miss sassy pants (Mark), why don't you calm yourself. Your response is a bit jumbled and doesn't make much sense to me, but maybe I'm just and idiot and can't read. I know all of these things have been looked at extensively, I never claimed to know exactly what's going on, and I climb up high on real ice way more than I dick around in the canyons. By the way, since your such an expert, what exactly does bullshit taste like?

Oh and if you can't tell, this is all being said with a light heart. Stop taking this so damn seriously, it is what it is man. This is a lifestyle, but it's also recreation. Take the good with the bad, roll with the punches, gas is cheap, it's not problem to drive farther, hike longer, blah blah blah. No hard feelings, but there's no need to be so persnickity dude.


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By Mark McConnell
Jan 7, 2009
crap! not again

Thanks but I have a couple questions?

Is this an enforced law? If yes by what penalty? If the only penalty is that the pipe is removed then I say we go ahead and seasonally farm the ice... removing the pipe each spring.

If the penalty is legal action against a group or person then how do we go about changing the policies and procedures of the JCOS.

I understand that I missed the last hearing that was extended on this topic, but I just plain didn't know about it... Sorry. Is it possible to get this reviewed as an exception or does nobody really care.


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By Monty
From Golden, CO
Jan 7, 2009
Just a teaser

Hank Caylor wrote:
"Where'd the pipe go"? There is a drilled rock pipe that smokes GREAT right past the 3rd tunnel and up the hill to the North, right under the climb "Head like a Hole" 12d.......wait, are we talking about farmed ice?


damn i wish i would have noticed that last time i was up there maybe i would have sent man. i had to walk all the way back to my car, and then i was too tired and winded to even do anything.
blast!


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By Kevin Craig
Jan 7, 2009
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd

Why is it that as soon as anyone starts having fun outdoors that the fekkin' bureaucrats have to come along and invent rules about why it's illegal to have fun??? How the hell is farming ice a water rights issue? Come warm weather, the ice melts and the water returns to the stream. It's borrowing water at the worst. In fact, it's storing water for a drier part of the year - seems all to the good.


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Jan 8, 2009

I can see why! Depending on the location, the melting could very well inhance erosion in the Ice's flow line. If a line isn't drawn, then it could progress (flows everywhere), and we would start seeing the permanent affects of water doing it's job...Eroding since 1,000,000,000,000,000BC.

I say if you want to farm, buy the land. Otherwise make it the adventure it should be. Travel.

Ouray is totally different, and it is privately owned.


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By Mark McConnell
Jan 8, 2009
crap! not again

Well I looked up the Jeffco climbing management plan and aside from being very long it is not a statute, only a guideline that will help us to behave in the lands we share with everyone. I think the biggest risk here is pissing off someone like Ranger Mike who will come down and put an AREA CLOSED to protect resources sign up and then we won't be able to climb the natural ice... -BOO!!!

Although I hate it, i think the best course of action is to just let this all melt away and be happy with what we do have... Maybe in a couple years things will change and someone will farm up some big ice legally!!!

"more ice - less management please"


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By Buff Johnson
Jan 8, 2009
smiley face

I can only offer that farming indeed is an issue more than a natural resource item. While, yes, also from a ranger standpoint, they have the directive to enforce under unlawful improvements. & as just posted, Jeffco can issue a directive to close the area & have the sheriff enforce it. Yes, the guidelines are just guidelines which oversee all the parks, but they were voted into effect by the commissioners which can lead to enforcement for each park under their specific mgt plans.

Certainly if Jeffco wanted to they could build structures to redirect flows and increase the potential for recreation. They are already planning to put tens of millions into the canyon for parking & trailing; a few modifications to farm ice isn't that big a deal from a constructable standpoint. Obviously, if a few climbers can do it with some tubing, it's not that hard to do.

This was discussed, but the water rights are established & effecting water course would be a problem for Jeffco. Doesn't the water go to the same place anyway? Yes, but it doesn't matter.

Ouray & Lake City were also discussed along with all the man-made appurtenances they have, but it's apples and oranges as to how the front range & those areas relate. Land ownership doesn't matter as much, btw; which is my point.

Could Jeffco develop water course work anyway to enhance ice flows? sure. But I don't think they want the hassle of dealing with who owns what water and getting permissions to do it. What's the difference of this and what Golden did to enhance the creek for the kayakers & pedestrians along the creekside? I have no idea, probably none.

Kev -- I hear where you're coming from, but the rules per se really weren't recently invented for water rights; it's just that now we have more moving into the area to use the front range for recreation. It was only a matter of time before guidelines like what Boulder & Jeffco (& the USFS, BLM, etc) are putting into place for recreation would happen to be. (in short, you're preachin to the choir, man.)


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By Tits McGee
From Boulder, CO
Jan 8, 2009
How I Send

Not to get off of the legal topic, but how is the natural ice forming now?


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By Evan S
From Erie, CO
Jan 8, 2009
Me, of course

It's gonna be 60 degrees today, so not very well.


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By Nick Dolecek
From Denver, Colorado
Dec 14, 2011

No ice up there right now, not even smears.


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By jack roberts
Dec 14, 2011

Do any of the climbers posting on these ice conditions thread ever stop think that perhaps these threads are monitored by law enforcement and that when the word "farmed ice" comes up in conversations that they go out of their way to search for it? Happened in CCC and happened in BLDR CYN.............Maybe the subject should be changed............


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