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By Michael C
From New Jersey
Jun 3, 2013
Mt Minsi, PA

Hey Matt, spotted the roof with the twin cracks but it looked a bit stiff for me and my partner to lead onsight.

I hate to say it, but the bolts on The Rib really make things go a lot smoother. Just an FYI, next climber up there might want to take some shears or a small saw. On rappel, just below the Pitch 1 ledge off to the left, there's bush that needs to be chopped. The rap route goes right through it and the rope could easily get snagged when getting pulled.


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By Larry S
Jun 3, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Michael C wrote:
Hey Matt, spotted the roof with the twin cracks but it looked a bit stiff for me and my partner to lead onsight. I hate to say it, but the bolts on The Rib really make things go a lot smoother. Just an FYI, next climber up there might want to take some shears or a small saw. On rappel, just below the Pitch 1 ledge off to the left, there's bush that needs to be chopped. The rap route goes right through it and the rope could easily get snagged when getting pulled.


If you aim the rap right, you can avoid it, but I do recall having to fight that bush on rappel my first time coming down the rib. If noone else gets to it before me, I'll attack it next time i'm there.


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By mgree
Jun 4, 2013

I've heard a lot of people say they like the top but not the p1 rap bolts, so I guess I'm in the minority because I'm still not a fan of either.

I was on my own Sunday, so I set up a TR on Cryptic Chimney and spent about an hour heavily cleaning the route and its 5.8 variation. Thanks to whoever left the fixed nut on the variation. It must've got stuck recently because it wasn't there when I did the route a few weeks ago. It's not about booty, I like it because it's like someone left you a puzzle on the wall to figure out, and if you're successful you feel like you've removed Excalibur's sword. The stuck cam at the Rib's p1 belay hasn't yielded to me yet in more than a dozen attempts, though. Anyways, I also did some light cleaning on the Rib, and very little on Tanemund and Triumverate Direct. I didn't touch any berry bushes, pines, or rhododendrons.


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By Larry S
Jun 4, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Good work on the cleaning, I'll have to try out cryptic sometime, i've yet to do that'n.

mgree wrote:
I've heard a lot of people say they like the top but not the p1 rap bolts, so I guess I'm in the minority because I'm still not a fan of either.


I both agree and disagree. Neither rapping straight from the top to the ground or to the mid-anchor is perfect... They're both slightly annoying/tricky rappels... Lots of swing potential if you go about them the wrong way... but it's nice, (convenient) to be able to get down with one rope it is the only mid-point ledge on that section of wall.

And to top it off, those are "B" code bolts, which means they're 2- 2.5" long - which would be fine, but some of them are sticking WAY out of the rock, which concerns me a little bit.


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By Michael C
From New Jersey
Jun 4, 2013
Mt Minsi, PA

mgree wrote:
...I set up a TR on Cryptic Chimney


how did you get up there? did you use the class 4 chimney right before the cheatstone boulder?

mgree wrote:
...The stuck cam at the Rib's p1 belay hasn't yielded to me yet


yeah, I played around with that for a minute too. it ain't going nowhere.


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By Michael C
From New Jersey
Jun 4, 2013
Mt Minsi, PA

Larry S wrote:
And to top it off, those are "B" code bolts, which means they're 2- 2.5" long - which would be fine, but some of them are sticking WAY out of the rock, which concerns me a little bit.


That's a little scary. It looks like there's nearly an inch not in the rock on the bottom bolt in this pic.

The Rib, bolts at the end of the first pitch
The Rib, bolts at the end of the first pitch


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By mgree
Jun 4, 2013

To set up a rope on Cryptic Chimney I took the "overcliff trail". As you walk eastward along the approach trail that parallels route 80, you know how the trail ducks away from the highway twice? Keep a lookout for a tall metal pole just before you come back out to the highway. There's a faint but easy to follow trail that'll meet the cliff at a small boulder field where you're close to the top of the Black Wall. You can keep following the trail all the way along the cliff to where you can cut left to the summit of Tammany, if you'd like.


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By Larry S
Jun 12, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Minsi is reopened, effective immediatly


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By kenr
Jun 13, 2013

Great news about the PA side.

So is the rock on Mt Minsi currently as wet and seeping as much of the Trapps?

Ken


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By PosiDave
Jun 14, 2013

You guys have been really active up there. Can't wait to go climb and help out.

Kenr - If you read any website or guidebook for NJ it clearly states two things when climbing No Bolting, Chipping, Etc. without permission from the park rangers (Liability issue) and that on state land you must sign a waiver before climbing and turn it in. (also a liability issue). The law also clearly states that all climbing access on county or township parks are at discretion of said county or town. I am not trying to be a D*** to you , but access in areas around here are ridiculous as it is.

Sourlands (half is open)

Allamuchy (you climb one of 10 20ft climbs as guides use the main wall almost every nice day. (I am friends with most of these guys no hard feelings).

Green Pond - Now required to have a guide

DWG- access is great and it just needs some cleaning up to have a great free spot. If you clearly can't say that is not perfect bolt job and is something were to happen it would be a perfect case for some whiny NJ baby to sue the state over and threaten access.

Maybe I am alittle paranoid and pissed that to usually climb I have to drive 3 hours to the Gunks and spend about $100 a trip. But laws are laws and if they ruin it for everyone then just follow them. I am all about fighting for access and questioning authority and even bolting, but not at the expense of others who just simply want to enjoy what little nature has to offer in NJ.


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By kenr
Jun 15, 2013

PosiDave wrote:
If you read any website or guidebook for NJ it clearly states two things when climbing No Bolting, Chipping, Etc. without permission from the park rangers


OK so here's a website for NJ:
www.mountainproject.com/v/new-jersey/106374428
I don't see anything there about No Bolting.

PosiDave wrote:
> "The law also clearly states ..."

Where in the laws of NJ does it state that? The laws of the state of New Jersey up on the web - like
here
So how about just post a link to the page of paragraph which says what you claim it says.

Ken


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By PosiDave
Jun 17, 2013

Kenr,

You can find access to the Administrative code via this website.

www.state.nj.us/dep/legal/get_rule.htm

remember that a bolt is considered a "permanent fixture"

Also

www.nj.gov/dep/parksandforests/parks/stephens.html

www.njskylands.com/odhike_rockclimbing_084.htm

It will ask that you download a waiver, If you contact the park office of any park where climbing is allowed they will tell you bolting or permanent altercations are in fact against park policy in NJ via the Administrative code. The old Access Fund state coordinator covered this on RC.com and multiple sites. Local parks fall under their own policy.

If you also must know, Most parks in NJ do not allow you to alter mountain bike trails without approval. Jorba usually holds these trail days, Allaire state park is governed under ATUG, Hartshorne, Clayton, Huber Woods do not allow any modifications to trails without approval of the park rangers due to liability issues.

I understand you want me to read through hundreds of pages and buy you the book. But you are not a child, you can do this on your own and it isn't even that hard. Sorry to sound insulting but that attitude is the reason NJ has these stupid laws in place. NJ law makers do not care if it is a bolt or spray paint. you are making a permanent altercation to existing public land which is illegal.

If you really want to go about it the right way it would be to contact Thomson Ling (via the Access Fund site) and ask him about a clear bolting policy. I have contacted him and asked if he is still the regional coordinator and if not I will gladly become the coordinator and help you with legally adding bolts. (I do in fact support them)


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By kenr
Jun 17, 2013

PosiDave wrote:
> ... park policy in NJ via the Administrative code

So apparently you have no evidence of a Law of NJ which forbids bolts.
You appeal instead to the NJ State Parks administrative code. (Actually it's not clear if the code permits rock climbing at all, never mind bolts).

But the New Jersey / Mt Tammany side of Delawater Water Gap is not a NJ State Park, so really that code does not apply to this thread on DWG.

It's important that whatever the restriction is (we still haven't gotten a link to the specific text) is an Administrative rule, not a Statute, because it's generally easier to get an exception (or even change) to an Administrative rule. Indeed one NJ climbing guidebook suggests that an "exception" for a certain aspect of climbing (no mention of bolting) has sometimes been made in the past.

I note also that there's nothing said anywhere in any rule or statute like, "If bolts or other permanent fixtures are ever placed without exception permission on a rock-climbing area at State park, that area shall be closed to climbing." Surely it makes more sense for the managers of a particular Park to just arrange for the bolts to be removed - (if they even care).

PosiDave wrote:
> ... Local parks fall under their own policy.

Thanks for clarifying that, since some rock climbing in New Jersey is done on public land (e.g. local county or city parks) which is not a State park. This applies to all the climbing in NJ I've done in the past two years.

my thoughts:

  • Destroying bolts placed by other climbers really doesn't have much to do with preventing climbing areas from being closed. Of the two areas I've heard that have been explicitly closed, bolts had nothing to do with it.

  • Talk to local climbers: Otherwise you can have no idea what "exceptions" they have arranged with the managers of particular park, exceptions which could be explicit or maybe unspoken. And you can't know what strategy the local climbers have for maintaining access.

Ken


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By PosiDave
Jun 18, 2013

NPS actually says to contact the specific park about bolting.

Administrative Code is enforceable. Bolting falls under permanent altercations to public property and was why I was told it is against the law (unless you obtain written permission by park rangers)

As for being a "local" I in fact live and climb in NJ. I have worked at climbing gyms, guide service, and was a manager of bigger outdoor shop. I dealt with the Access Fund and plenty of organizations in the Cycling & climbing communities as well as worked with Park Rangers. I don't know your background but you seem to just want to play the Ignorance is Bliss card.

I will give everyone the benefit of knowledge and will call the Park service at DWG and will provide a answer and what ranger it came from. Instead of arguing.


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By Larry S
Jun 21, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Dave, I've already got some communications with the park service regarding perm rap anchors. I was dealing with Al Ambler, who handles the falcon closures, he has forwarded the issue up the chain at the park.

I've got some free time tomorrow evening and will be in the area. Anyone want to meet at Minsi by the cold air cave around 6pm and scope things out, clean the trail up, and maybe fire off a quick route?


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By Larry S
Jun 21, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

I just heard back from the nps regarding fixed anchors. They could not give me a "feeling" on if they would approve new fixed anchors or not, however, I was directed to send any request to:

Superintendent John J. Donahue
Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area
1978 River Road Bushkill PA 18324

I would be happy to write up any such request. I think it should be thorough and include the current state, the reason for the desired change, the impact (visual, safety, environmental, nature of climb, etc), alternatives to the change, community support, etc.


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By Larry S
Jun 21, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

That should help end our "bolting is illegal" discussion and get us back on cleaning routes. If you want to bolt something, the above is how to get it approved by the park service.

Anyone been to Minsi since it reopened? I'll be going tomorrow evening if anyone would like to join.


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By Tony Lopez
From NJ
Jun 22, 2013
L.C. Crack

Hey Larry,
I'm up for that. See you later.

Tony


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By Larry S
Jun 22, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Thanks to Tony's help today, the climber's trail has been cleaned all the way from the cold air cave to boca roca grande.


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By joeforte
From palmerton, pa
Jun 23, 2013

Awesome work guys!


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By Larry S
Jun 23, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Climbed and did a little maintenance on drifting arrow (all three pitches) and surprise today. The mid rap anchor on surprise is missing at the moment.


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By Larry S
Jun 26, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

So... what routes to clean/work on next here? any suggestions? I'm thinking: Espresso - 5.8+ on the practice face (mostly clean, couple of new birch bushes on P2), Point of No Return 5.8 on Land of Giants (route 34 in the falcon guide - bottom is very overgrown, but doable), and Morning Wall - 5.9/5.10 (approach for this up Hidden Passage looks like a 100 foot vertical jungle)

Anyone been on any of these?


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By Larry S
Jun 28, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Weather and wife permitting, i'm looking to head up to minsi tomorrow afternoon to try and clean a route. I need a partner, any takers? Thinking "Point of No Return" or "hidden passage" up to the base of morning wall.


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By Larry S
Jun 29, 2013
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Cleaned up the base of "Point of No Return" today. Also temporarily left a fixed line on Hidden Passage to facilitate some route cleaning and access to morning wall. It's hung off the bolted anchor for morning wall. Line should be down in a week or two.


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By Michael C
From New Jersey
Jun 30, 2013
Mt Minsi, PA

Larry - next weekend, Sunday 7/7, I'm free if you want to head on up there and do some cleaning/climbing.


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