Dear Douche, (Otto's Route, Independence Monument, Chopped)

In short: thanks for chopping bolts, filling in JOHN OTTO's HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT HANDHOLDS, and removing the stepping bar at the top of the monument. You must be the God of climbing.

I am writing in regard to your bold actions on independence monument. You are obviously a real tough guy. If the 5.8 cattle route wasn't hard enough for you THERE IS AT LEAST FOUR OTHER ROUTES on the monument you could have stuck your gigantic penis in.

I climbed the monument at the end of november on a cold wet morning with my younger brother. The climb is a trad/sport route. Having done the climb multiple times (10+) I was completely prepared to do it without traditional equipment. However on this day the rock was a bit wet and slick and the holds through the exposed sections were filled in. Furthermore, as my brother was leading the sport pitch he could have decked for 80% of the route.

Keep the chopper at home for the most popular line. The historical significance of John Otto's work was/is incredible, thank you for destroying it.

Very unfortunate. This is a VERY historical route. I am sure the vandal has ethics and climbing morals larger than anyone in Colorado. I would be on the tar and feather train with you Grog M. Pretty senseless IMO. Of all routes to do this to this ain't it. I would suggest that before you post an opinion do some research on this route. This was done before your grandpa had pubic hair. Imagine drilling on lead, 3" holes (diameter) to pound bar into, in cowboys boots..not tied in!

wow. so we're talking: all pins removed, all holes filled in (with dirt? or what), anchors removed? any pics? this is pretty outrageous

mountainproject.com/v/ottos…

the route for those unfamiliar

Cerro Monument by fair means! Better call Kruk, Kennedy, and Lama to get the full story.

So...what is the full story?

The story is the majority of climbers are douche bags with a lot of time and money on there hands, with zero perspective and big trust funds.

That really sucks man, but at least you made the best of it. Great work!

To be a dick: I don't know that Otto's Route is the most appropriate wet-weather route. How as the final archy handhold just before the apex of exposure on the last pitch? That would be pretty tough to trust if it was wet.

So what, exactly, is the extent of the alteration? What pitches are affected?

Climbing this historical and very soft and fragile sandstone while it is wet is kind of douchy too. Just sayin. But this is probably just a troll anyway.

Keep in mind many of these hand and foot holds used to be small holes that had pipes in them and now are giant holes. Perhaps some repairs were in order to restore this route. But the info you gave is somewhat vague.

Very lame if true.

Greg D wrote:Climbing this historical and very soft and fragile sandstone while it is wet is kind of douchy too.

+1 While I do not in any way condone the altering of such a historical route.

Why are you climbing soft sandstone while wet?? That's not much more respectful.

The Tradiban strikes!

How did they fill in the holds? Epoxy? Some kind of cement? Basically, can it be removed?

This is complete and utter bull shit. I consider myself fortunate that in April I was able to get on the line in its original condition. The route was incredibly fun, and even more than that, an awesome opportunity to climb back through time as it were and admire the determination and courage of John Otto and his pursuit of the Monument's Summit.

This is akin to tearing down Abraham Lincoln's log cabin because it's not up to building code. Just an absolute disgrace and desecration of an awesome tower experience.

I climbed this as my second tower of the day on two different occasions. Both times the tower had about 10 parties coming and going and this was late in the day. I imagine it sees 20-25 ascents every Saturday and Sunday during good weather.

By way of comparison, there were clearly more people climbing on otto's than the rest of the monument combined.

What are the gumby's going to climb? I also support filling the Bastille crack with cement.

nicelegs wrote: I also support filling the Bastille crack with cement.

FILL IT ALL WITH CEMENT

ChefMattThaner wrote: +1 While I do not in any way condone the altering of such a historical route. Why are you climbing soft sandstone while wet?? That's not much more respectful.

Pretty big difference between the two actually. Surprised at the lack of outrage over this really That route was sick. This is really awful.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to pose a question:

DISCLAIMER: I do not condone chopping, chipping, bolting, hammering, chalking, or climbing of any kind. So please don't yell at me; I'm not taking a stance, just trying to stay neutral...

With that out of the way....

I am frankly a little surprised that the climbing community isn't even a little bit upset about the style in which the original route went up. I cant even think of another example where a rock formation was attacked with the same level of "by any means necessary" tactics. With all due respect to Otto and company, the guy literally chopped A STAIRCASE into the rock.

When that one Patagonian climb that-shalt-not-be-named got drilled full of holes, the community was outraged; and when those bolts were eventually chopped, most people seemed to rally behind the choppers.

How much leniency is given to the FA's of years past? Why are some historical routes held to a certain ethical standard while others are branded with, "Its history dammit, leave it alone!" mentality?

Anyway, I'm not sure if there is a right answer, just something this dilemma has made me ponder.

Bill, I don't think that you have yet led the route. Much less in leather soled boots with a hemp rope to which you are not tied in. This was the first ascent of a major desert tower and no one is advocating for his [Otto's, or the chopper] ethics.

I dare you to go lead the natural line of the route without exploiting a single feature altered by John Otto. I think that it would probably clock in around 5.10S/X.

As far as official land management views on the historical value of a given artifact in the parks, I believe that 50 years is a critical threshold for the onset of antique value to a given object, say the final remaining pipe of Otto's atop the overhanging last pitch.

Max Supertramp wrote: I dare you to go lead the natural line of the route without exploiting a single feature altered by John Otto. I think that it would probably clock in around 5.10S/X.

Don't mean to stir the pot, but maybe it should have stayed 5.10X?

You're right, I haven't led the route but from the comfort of my sofa it just doesn't add up. Was there really not another desert tower that could have been led at the time without chopping steps or drilling in pipes? Even if one was going to aid it, wouldn't just a bolt or drilled pin ladder been a little more discreet/respectful/ethical/logical than what actually happened?

I really don't intend any disrespect at all when I ask these questions. I've climbed my fair share of chipped or over bolted routes that I thought were quite fun, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was right. right? Who knows.

Yes, please carry out your indictment of an over 100 year old first ascent with me. You can totally convince both myself and John Otto's ghost that we are giant sissies for not jumping on a convoluted, sometimes overhanging/OW 100+ m 5.10X route in softer than average stone.

You can also convince me that the supposed 'chopping' does not endanger myself or other folks that have become familiar with the already somewhat suspect fixed gear that provides the best protection currently available.

Yes.

By the way, best troll ever. Still haven't gone up there to check it out.

Hahaha, bolt ladder Bill. Go climb the route, man. It is/was a bolt ladder built to the highest possible standard of the day.

This cracks me up.