Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Dead Lifts???
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By GhaMby
From Heaven
Apr 8, 2013
The last few months I have been pushing my climb a bit, but every monday my mid to lower back is sore/tired/tight and I want to continue climbing harder but hopefully without this happening.

A friend of mine is really into Kettlebells, and he thought that might be the answer, I asked a couple local badass climbers, that are also Crossfit trainers (which I do not participate in), what they thought of swinging bells would do and they both thought that I would likely f_ck my back up more if I didn't do them 100% perfectly. They suggested dead lifts. Also of note is that both of these guys look very much like Crossfit trainers, they were likely the #1 athlete in whatever high school they went to and are of probably very strong naturally.

Does anyone use dead lifts to improve their climbing? From what I read it can have a lot of benefits for quite a few muscle groups including: core, hamstrings, lower and middle back, glutes and traps. These are all muscle groups I want to strengthen, but being 6'4" and scrawny I'm concerned that I may hurt my spine even more.

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Apr 8, 2013
Day Lily.
Sure it'll help. Go super light until you KNOW you have solid technique then move on from there. Just for options you can try the new (new to mainstream fitness) ropes workout where you hold a large, heavy rope in each hand and move your arms (its an entire body workout though) up and down. 30 second sets x 3-5 sets at least once per week makes a difference.

I have a gnarly lower back and knees so I assure you if I'm mentioning it you can find your version of good technique and get max results without hurting yourself.

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Apr 8, 2013
Day Lily.
Real quick: it helps because climbing is about expansion and contraction (tension and relaxation) and working out in the gym period can help stimulate/strengthen your muscles and therefore you can simulate the stress applied while climbing but in a gym (you can stress the fibers and create muscular endurance adaptations in the gym that immediately cross over to the vertical world). Its good for climbs at your limit especially, won't do much for someone not pushing their known limits unless they're working out for just a strong/solid/healthy body.

FLAG
By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Apr 8, 2013
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
If you can find a row machine that fits you, use it.

Dead lifts can't hurt if you are wading into them as the stoned master said. Take it slow, find your stride.

also:

bent over row

FLAG
By GhaMby
From Heaven
Apr 8, 2013
mensfitness.com/training/reviv...

Is this what you meant, Stoned?

I would rather not have to buy anything new as far as equipment goes, although I may need more plates for lifting, since I only have around 150lbs right now.

Do you think shoulder shrugs do anything? I was on a really steep crack this weekend and afterwards the muscles in my lower neck were tight, looking at a diagram of back muscles it showed the traps going up the neck and down below the shoulder blades, I think I need to do some serious work to strengthen this section as well.

FLAG
By Jason Kim
From Encinitas, CA
Apr 8, 2013
Descending Cox Col (Bear Creek Spire). Photo by Ry...
If done correctly, and barring any pre-existing spinal issues, a strength program that includes deadlifts and squats should help quite a bit. Check out Mark Rippetoe's excellent primer Starting Strength. You'll need a barbell-friendly gym or a cage and weights. You don't need to drink a gallon of milk a day, or follow any crazy diets.

Technique and smart programming are important to avoid hurting yourself. And even if you do things correctly, you can still hurt yourself (just like climbing).

I am unfortunate enough to suffer from spondylolisthesis, a couple of herniated discs, and sciatica, but have used the above program to get stronger and improve my back health.

FLAG
By Zach Kling
From Indianapolis, Indiana
Apr 8, 2013
Winter bouldering gets cold.
I second Jason on the Starting Strength recommendation. Three lifts a workout; three workouts a week. Each one takes about an hour if you do it right. I am definitely not a superstar athlete and have used the program to great benefit.

I used to get the same sore lower back you were talking about, but it seems that the squat and deadlift training have alleviated that problem. My core is also just so much stronger now it is no longer the first thing to give out on hard boulder problems.

I'd do it. Just take it easy to start and perfect the form.

to address the shoulder shrugs: waste of time to do it as a separate lift. The deadlift, while not targeting them directly, does hit the traps. If you're still really concerned with the traps, I know a few guys who always throw a shrug in at the end of each DL rep. YMMV but it works for them. They caution to actually complete the DL before the shrug; in other words, don't shrug to complete the deadlift.

FLAG
By gary ohm
From Paso Robles
Apr 8, 2013
Kettlebells kick ASS. But so do dead lifts. Don't waste time doing the "hard style" kettlebell training. Look for guidance into the sport kettlebell. The sport kettlebell events are 10 minutes long. You either swing and push over head a bunch of weight or just push overhead a bunch of weight. It can be done one handed or two. If you are really interested I'll post a few links to web sites.

All this said, dead lifts are freaking amazing whole body exercises. But deads and bells are different animals. Deads are strength moves, bells are a strength endurance sport.

In my opinion, if you can incorporate both into your climbing workouts you will have all the bases covered. Don't forget to throw in some handstand work, front levers, back levers, L-sits, ring dips and ring pushups. You will be a machine!!

FLAG
 
By jellybean
Apr 9, 2013
Dead lifts are awesome but I believe they are kind of an advanced lift. Maybe start with squats then move on to dead lifts. If your lower back is weak dead lifts will fix that, or break you. Also shrugs are a great lift but if I don't do them with regularity the soreness I get is unbearable( headaches).

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Apr 9, 2013
El Chorro
Jason, Zach and a few others have already given you great advice. Few more things:

You can just as easily hurt yourself doing dead lifts or squats as you can doing kettleball workouts. Jumping into any type of exercise too quickly is not the thing to do. Follow a program that is designed for someone who has never lifted before. I believe the one listed above is probably a good place to start. Whatever you do, don't start with three intense sessions in the first week. You'll get hurt. Start with one light session the first week, two the next week, then maybe three on the fourth week. When you think it's time to increase intensity or add weight, wait another week or two. Even then, increase in the smallest increments possible and only one increase per three workouts.

Lifting is like climbing - you can't just do one exercise or you will become unbalanced. Doing only dead lifts may help in the beginning, but long term it is not a great idea. For long term health, you need to be involved in a program that is designed to strengthen your entire body. Incorporate the type of climbing you do into the program.

PS, it is great that you are being proactive. Lower back issues have a habit if causing all kids of other problems. Get it sorted. Add in some heavy stretching and yoga after your workouts to stay lean and flexible.

FLAG
By GhaMby
From Heaven
Apr 9, 2013
Jason Kim wrote:
Check out Mark Rippetoe's excellent primer Starting Strength. You'll need a barbell-friendly gym or a cage and weights. You don't need to drink a gallon of milk a day, or follow any crazy diets.



I can get the book in electronic form for $5, should I do that or is having the hard copy worth $30???

Also I have weights in my garage, a barbell and around 150 lbs in plates. I haven't messed with the weight rack that came with the house, but I think I might be able to do squats with it. I really don't want to get hurt, so will doing low weight, high reps with good form be enough to see overall body strength increases? Or do I really need to do these lifts heavy to have the effect I'm looking for?

Thanks for the input, it looks like others have had good results from dead lifts and squats.

I'm not a complete newby to lifting, although I've only been "trained" on proper tecnique through buddies in the Air Force while stuck in Kuwait. Do you think it's essential to have a mirror up to maintain good form??? Or are those just so meatheads can check themselves out as their muscles bulge???

FLAG
By Zach Kling
From Indianapolis, Indiana
Apr 9, 2013
Winter bouldering gets cold.
Listen to Ryan as far as the ramp up in intensity...

Low reps, high weight is the way to go to see true strength and power results. High reps will just help you do more of what you can already do. High weight will make you stronger and help to alleviate the back problems because your muscles will be able to handle the loads you put on them.

Mirrors - absolutely essential for proper form maintenance on squats and deadlifts. Don't get caught up staring at your muscles. Look at your form!

FLAG
By Raul P
Apr 9, 2013
Stella!
An awesome transition into deadlifts is to begin with single leg romainian dead lifts.

Check out Eric Cressey's dead lift page on youtube. The guy is a beast, and recognized as one of the best fitness trainers/experts in a lot of circles.

youtube.com/user/ecressey/vide...

Single leg RDL's can be done with 20lb dumb bells, and make you very very sore the next day (good kind of sore) if you're just starting with dead lifts.

Here'e the video to single leg RDL with dumb bell:


FLAG
By JeanieB
From Provo, UT
Apr 9, 2013
If your back problems are muscular in nature you might want to try stretches and a sports massage/deep tissue work that target the glutes, quads and hip flexors. I do quite a bit of heavy lifting in addition to climbing and the times I have had problems with my back muscles, particularly in my lower back, have been because the flexibility in my quads, glutes and hip flexors has been poor. The muscles in your upper legs and hips eventually tie into your back and tightess in one just causes problems in another. Using a foam roller after I climb or lift to target those areas has helped. Doing yoga once a week has also helped me as well.

This site has some great tutorials for gaining mobility in different areas: mobilitywod.com

FLAG
By Jason Kim
From Encinitas, CA
Apr 9, 2013
Descending Cox Col (Bear Creek Spire). Photo by Ry...
sweagan wrote:
I can get the book in electronic form for $5, should I do that or is having the hard copy worth $30??? Also I have weights in my garage, a barbell and around 150 lbs in plates. I haven't messed with the weight rack that came with the house, but I think I might be able to do squats with it. I really don't want to get hurt, so will doing low weight, high reps with good form be enough to see overall body strength increases? Or do I really need to do these lifts heavy to have the effect I'm looking for? Thanks for the input, it looks like others have had good results from dead lifts and squats. I'm not a complete newby to lifting, although I've only been "trained" on proper tecnique through buddies in the Air Force while stuck in Kuwait. Do you think it's essential to have a mirror up to maintain good form??? Or are those just so meatheads can check themselves out as their muscles bulge???


I am a book collector, so I'd say it's worth the $30, but that is up to you. The info is the same.

150 lbs. might get you started for a couple of weeks, but you'll soon need more. Plates can be found on the cheap through craigslist, though. Sometimes even for free.

The deadlift is usually done as a low-rep, high-weight exercise (for a number of reasons). I'd suggest you read the book, follow Rip's advice, and eventually you can fine-tune a program that will best suit your needs.

Self-critique using a mirror is a bad idea and will probably do more harm than good. Use a video camera and watch yourself afterwards, if anything. Watch out for self-proclaimed experts on technique, too. Possession of big muscles or a vast amount of strength does not necessarily mean anything.

There's a Starting Strength forum that has a lot of free, useful info. Like Mountain Project, you need to be good at sifting through the quality info from the BS.

FLAG
By Jason Kim
From Encinitas, CA
Apr 9, 2013
Descending Cox Col (Bear Creek Spire). Photo by Ry...
Zach Kling wrote:
Mirrors - absolutely essential for proper form maintenance on squats and deadlifts. Don't get caught up staring at your muscles. Look at your form!


Would disagree with this, and so do some notable strength coaches. When you use a mirror to observe your own form during a lift, you disengage important neuromuscular feedback pathways by replacing them with visual cues. You need to learn how to feel the lift, in other words. Having a qualified coach is best, but using a video camera to record your movement and then self-critique can also work.

FLAG
 
By bernard
From birmingham, al
Apr 9, 2013
near trapps, Shawangunks, NY, 2008
go light, progress slowly, master correct form above all else. I like to do deads from a 3' x 3' portable wooden platform (it's 6-7 inches high) the gym has....that i slide into to the stance position of the rack. This way i can get deep on the lowering portion of the movement without having the plates bang on the ground....or even touch the ground. Keep in mind the mechanics of the squat within the dead lift movement need to be strict.

I also warm up with seated squats and good-mornings, bent-over rows, and seated cable rows beforehand. I would avoid going into deadlifts cold. Get your core, legs, and lower back/shoulders warmed up before hand. I alternate sets of leg raises (one of those standing, elbows-on-pads, back against pad, gripping handles devices) in between my DL sets to keep my lower back and abs engaged during the process.

Excellent exercise.

I also like to do an exercise that is a squat with dumbells. With arms bent so that the db's are raised at your chest (top of the curl position, palms in) press the db's overhead, rotating as you push them up so at the top of the press palms are facing out (this is sometimes called an Arnold when done from a seated position). With db's overhead slowly squat and along with the squat motion, drop the db's down, rotating them back to chest height/palms in. Push up out of the squat and press/rotate the db's back overhead during the ascent from the squat so that they are directly overhead when you are fully erect out of the squat.

Focus on balance, the planes of motion you are executing the movements in, and keeping the db's balanced throughout the press movement

This exercise, along with dead lifts, have an aerobic component and engage a lot of your muscular system top to bottom.

I have also read that a military press/squat combo is a good exercise for the same reasons. Haven't tried that one

FLAG
By Paul Hunnicutt
From Boulder, CO
Apr 9, 2013
Half Dome
Google: piriformis stretches

They help a ton with the lower back.

You can also stretch your sciatic nerve which helps release tension in your lower back/hamstrings.

Both of those have helped sort out my lower back pain/tightness a ton.

Start out with low weight on any lifting. You aren't bodybuilding or power lifting. You could probably just do a regimen of non-weighted exercises that would strengthen and support your climbing.

FLAG
By jimmyjam
Apr 9, 2013
Bumps for KBs and deadlifts. I was a total gym rat before I got into climbing and used both heavily. They will do wonders for you, as long as you keep true form and don't let your ego get the best of you. Start slow in front of a mirror to keep forum. I started deadlifting 135lbs as a start weight to get proper forum. And I used a 35lbs kb to start. I'm 6ft 175lbs. You will progress quickly just can't stress enough how important proper forum is. Good luck sir.

FLAG
By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Apr 9, 2013
Here's the thing OP: You don't have enough weight. 150lb is deadlift weight for a 9 yo little girl. Unless you plan to buy more plates,(which run ~$1/lb) you're not really going to challenge yourself/get much stronger.

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Apr 9, 2013
El Chorro
Will S wrote:
Here's the thing OP: You don't have enough weight. 150lb is deadlift weight for a 9 yo little girl. Unless you plan to buy more plates,(which run ~$1/lb) you're not really going to challenge yourself/get much stronger.


Not so fast.

OP, you did say you were 6'4" and scrawny (I'm guessing 170-180lb?). The bar weights 45lb so that's 195lb. Deadlifts are not easy to master for tall and skinny people - I know because I am 6ft and was about 140 when I started lifting. It will take a while for you to need more than 195 - at least long enough for you to figure out if it is worth spending money to buy more plates. And like Jason said, you can usually find them cheap or free because people buy them for New Year's Resolutions and shit, and they either sell them or leave them behind when they move.

FLAG
By Nick K
From Somerville, MA
Apr 9, 2013
Before you get all stoked on weight lifting, which I'm sure is great and all, what kind of shape are your abs in?

Maybe start by boosting your ab workouts so they balance out your overdeveloped back and shoulder muscles (speaking from my own personal experience here), I find that to often be the culprit when I start having back issues. Making sure I have targeted crunches in my routine usually helps even this out: 1 set = 40 crunches, 10 standard, 10 legs up, 10 left side obliques, 10 right side obliques. I throw this in between my sets of hindu squats and hindu pushups. Each set is an interval, rest for 30s to 1 min between, repeat till you're toast and then stretch. Takes 20 minutes for me to warm up, hammer through 4 sets of the above and stretch down, and works a whole bunch of opposition muscles to keep your climbing muscles happy.

Also, I think the hindu pushups help with the back too, but I'm always doing them along with the above, so I can't tell you if they work in isolation. And none of these things require spending money.

FLAG
By Zach Kling
From Indianapolis, Indiana
Apr 9, 2013
Winter bouldering gets cold.
Jason Kim wrote:
Would disagree with this, and so do some notable strength coaches. When you use a mirror to observe your own form during a lift, you disengage important neuromuscular feedback pathways by replacing them with visual cues. You need to learn how to feel the lift, in other words. Having a qualified coach is best, but using a video camera to record your movement and then self-critique can also work.



Interesting thought. I'll have to poke around a little, but I can definitely see where this could be problematic. I agree that a coach or video would be better, but I would still argue that when you are first starting a big lift like the deadlift looking at your form during a lift won't hurt as much as doing it incorrectly. I will agree with you that relying on that feedback is probably an inhibition to further development when you've got the form down.

Thanks for something to think about tomorrow in the weight room!

FLAG
By Garret Nuzzo-Jones
From Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 9, 2013
Cleaning up in Jenny Lake.
Another vote for Rippetoes Starting Strength. Fantastic book.

FLAG
 
By jellybean
Apr 10, 2013
Romainian dead lifts are horrible on your lower back. Seriously do some squats for a few weeks and then progress to dead lifts. Romainian dead lifts are brutal and will most likely injure you if your lower back is weak. If you can keep them mellow than perhaps they will be beneficial. I would definitely work on squats first before progressing to dead lifts, especially Romainian.

FLAG
By adamx
Jun 18, 2013
Ryan Williams wrote:
Not so fast. OP, you did say you were 6'4" and scrawny (I'm guessing 170-180lb?). The bar weights 45lb so that's 195lb. Deadlifts are not easy to master for tall and skinny people - I know because I am 6ft and was about 140 when I started lifting. It will take a while for you to need more than 195 - at least long enough for you to figure out if it is worth spending money to buy more plates. And like Jason said, you can usually find them cheap or free because people buy them for New Year's Resolutions and shit, and they either sell them or leave them behind when they move.


I'm 5'9" and weighed about 140 when I started deadlifting years back. Training 1.5 times a week and progressively loading the bar, I got to 300 pounds in 3 months. YMMV, but 195? That'll get light, quick.

I say buy some weight. Decide you don't want it and pop it right back on craigslist, you'll get your money back.

One more vote for Starting Strength.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>